PuG dungeon loot etiquette for dummies
by Daniel Whitcomb 
Jan 18th 2009 at 12:00PM
So with the dawn of Wrath, a lot of people have been heading into 5-man dungeons, both the normal and heroic type. They may be after experience, they may be after badges, they may be after achievements, but nearly everyone is also very interested in whatever loot may drop along the way. To add to this, not everyone is so lucky as to have a pre-made 5 man ready to go when they log on for the night. Maybe they're guildless, maybe their guild is off in Naxxramas, maybe their guild is 10 levels below them, but whatever the reason, a lot of people end up looking for the pickup groups to get their dungeon diving done.
Anyhow, you probably know what happens next. Pickup group plus loot equals drama. You'd almost think that's some sort of universal constant in WoW. Sure, we've had some great PuGs, but we've had some bad ones too, and those bad ones seem to come complete with ready-made loot drama, and it seems like we're not alone. We're hearing from a lot of people lately who've had problems with loot distribution drama.But here's a secret: While most people want to get all the loot they can, very few people actually like being in the middle of loot drama, and they probably want to avoid it as much as you do. The easiest way to avoid that drama and get along with your PuG when the boss drops and it's time to roll for the blues and the purples is to know the ropes. With that in mind, here's a few pointers on loot policy in PuGs.
1. Know Your Roll for BoPs - The Bind on Pickup stuff that drops off the boss is where most of the drama comes from. This is where you need to know exactly how your group plans to roll. There's a couple ways this usually goes down:
One, everyone just rolls. Need if it's something you'd use and is a genuine upgrade, greed if you don't need it but want it for vendor fodder. Some people prefer this method for its simplicity, but it's sort of a straight forward bullheaded approach that may lead to the loot not being used in the best way.
The second basic way, which I strongly prefer, is for everyone to pass on the item, and for any discussion to ensue on who gets it before making another roll. This allows people to decide if they really *need* It, and allows people to differentiate between those who would use it immediately, and those who would just stick it in the bank for an off spec. Likewise, if someone could use it for an off spec, this gives them a chance to see if it's alright if they roll need. If there's an Enchanter in your party, it also gives people the option of asking them to break it down into a shard.
2. Know your Roll for BoEs - Generally for Bind of Equip, the "everyone just rolls" approach works much better. It's BoE, so it's not like it's not transferable later. If a BoE is a genuine upgrade for someone (as in, I'd wear it now type of upgrade), many groups don't mind handing it over.
Okay, so that's the most basic outline for rolling loot, but what happens when stuff gets really sticky? After all, if it was really as simple as everyone rolling, things would be a lot simpler. Let's move on to part II, where we'll discuss some of the finer nuances of rolling for loot.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Tips, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
medeii Jan 18th 2009 12:12PM
Pass and roll is a needless waste of time that makes for molasses-crawling-uphill slow runs. It also allows for plenty of opportunities for abuse, since there's always that one jerk who will wait for everyone else to pass (or roll Greed) before rolling Need themselves.
The best way I've found is to have everyone roll Need on BOEs (including rares/epics), and Need/Pass BOPs depending on the item's upgrade status for each person. Enchanters can Greed the BOPs to save time, and everyone that didn't get a blue or better during the run gets to roll on shards at the end. This ensures that people can't mistakenly or purposely roll Need while everyone else rolls Greed or passes, and the group doesn't waste ten minutes distributing loot after a boss.
In a guild raid, couple this with ML for boss fights so that an officer can either assign the loot or correlate drops with DKP totals.
kabshiel Jan 18th 2009 12:51PM
A variation that's worked pretty well for me is to have people roll need on BoPs if they need it for their main spec and greed if they need it for an off-spec. If everyone passes, you can then /roll for it or have an enchanter DE.
As far as shards go, it's soooooo much simpler if all shards are rolled for at the end of the run. Everyone only has to /roll once and the top two or whatever people each get a shard.
jurandr Jan 18th 2009 1:28PM
"Anyhow, you probably know what happens next. Pickup group plus loot equals drama. You'd almost think that's some sort of universal constant in WoW. Sure, we've had some great PuGs, but we've had some bad ones too, and those bad ones seem to come complete with ready-made loot drama, and it seems like we're not alone. We're hearing from a lot of people lately who've had problems with loot distribution drama."
That method is a huge waste of time.. I agree with medeii. If you have to talk about it, talk before clicking. it's not like that's diffucult or anything
therationalpi Jan 18th 2009 1:45PM
I agree completely with Medeii. Establishing at the start of a run that "Need is for need, greed is for vendor. That's why those buttons are there in the first place." really eliminates a lot of the wasted time and drama. The concept of "Who will make best use of the item" is something reserved for guilds where you get to enjoy the advantages of your fellow player improving. If I'm in a guild run, I'm fine with the healer getting an item over me because I get to enjoy the benefits of their improved healing. In a PuG, I will never see the other player again.
However, I have an unusual view on BoE items. With the girth of BoE epics in raids, and good BoP blues in dungeons, there are a lot of items out there that people can really use. For example, the Dark Runic Mantle that drops in Utgarde Pinnacle was very hard to come by on the auction house for awhile. However, it was easily the best pre-raid mage shoulder item you could get. My policy on items like that was that you can roll need if you are really going to equip it. The reason? If the item is never on the auction house, how else is the player going to be able to get it?
angel1573 Jan 18th 2009 12:26PM
I totally agree to go against your 2nd method. Passing, and discussing, while it may save trauma over a mis-loot, it is incredibly time-consuming and usually results in more squabbles than it's worth. I've done both methods and by far prefer the former than the latter.
If an enchanter voices early that they'll DE, they can easily set up a system where they roll greed on everything, if someone wants it they can roll need, and if not pass--works well for shards in formed groups.
And to be quite honest, if someone "ninja-loots" or screws up a roll in a PuG it's not the end of the world, and honestly is to be expected. Guild and friend runs are the only ways to really guarantee that such things are less likely to happen--especially when you can set up your own loot rules.
In the end, the everyone auto Need/Greed on BoPs is the easiest and fastest way to deal with PuG loot. I do agree with your note on BoE's however, so that's a plus :).
pkrockin Jan 18th 2009 10:10PM
For 5-mans....
Roll Need if it's an upgrade for you in your current role. Greed otherwise. If you can DE and no one has Needed, click Need. Roll on shards at the end the instance - top rollers each get a shard(if there's 3 shards, the 3 highest rolls get a shard). If you don't trust your DE'er to stick around for the whole instance or just ninja your shards, roll after every DE.
Beyond that, ask to roll Need if you want it for an alternate set. This goes for greens, blues, and purples.
Mecandes Jan 18th 2009 12:36PM
Quote: "The second basic way, which I strongly prefer, is for everyone to pass on the item, and for any discussion to ensue on who gets it..."
Ah, but you see, Discussion = Drama. If two people genuinely need an item, and they both roll, then all you can honestly complain about is your luck. The dice are there to even the playing field between timid players and bossy players, between the "in crowd" of the group and the outsiders. In a perfect world, there'd be no dice in WoW... but it's not a perfect world.
You really need to distinguish between a guild raid and a 5-man pick-up group. Discussion about who deserves the item more may work among friends and guildmates progressing through end-game raids, but it's pretty much useless in a PuG of strangers; as you point out, everyone can "discuss" why THEY need the gear more... and someone is going to get hurt.
For raids, every serious guild has some sort of DKP or EPGP loot rule system to keep things fair; raiding guilds that don't end up falling apart over loot drama eventually.
If you are getting a PuG together because you want a specific piece of loot, then you need to "discuss" that possibility BEFORE the group even begins the instance; if someone isn't okay with it, it gives them the chance to move on without wasting their time.
Sysgoddess Jan 23rd 2009 11:30AM
"Ah, but you see, Discussion = Drama. If two people genuinely need an item, and they both roll, then all you can honestly complain about is your luck. The dice are there to even the playing field between timid players and bossy players, between the "in crowd" of the group and the outsiders."
Not so. When I first started OTing in Kara with a new guild, I won a roll for Attumen's Vambraces of Courage, much to the consternation of the MT who wanted them to finish out her set and had been apparently trying to farm them and discussing same in vent and in raid chat before I joined or was AFK. She harassed me endlessly through whispers for the remainder of the run, especially after the raid leader swapped our tanking positions for various fights.
Some people are going to give others grief regardless of how the loot is handled.
Kanuris Jan 18th 2009 1:26PM
On my server, Stormrage EU, it seems almost every 80 knows the drilling on loot.
Need if you need it.
Pass if you don't.
Greed to disenchant.
I can't remember any 5 man loot drama with this system. Everyone seems to have adapted to it which makes my life as the disenchanting guy a lot easier.
Amaxe Jan 18th 2009 1:15PM
When I was a noob, I thought the top icon meant you were rolling to see who got it, and the coin indicated the person who needed it, so I involuntarily ninja'd some stuff before I learned what the hell i was doing.
In our runs, we do master looter on blues or higher, with the policy that everyone (even the pugs) has a chance to roll (no "reserved" pieces for the guild) so long as you are rolling on something you can use (no vendoring). Things nobody can use, we shard, and at the end of the night everyone rolls, and the highest rolls (up to the number of shards collected) each get a shard. If we have no enchanter, and nobody can use it, then we "roll to vendor" with the winner getting the item.
It's worked well. The PuGs have a reason to work with us, and we've found good guild members this way.
Debesun Jan 18th 2009 1:52PM
On my old server (Barthilas Pvp- US) there was a lot of drama when it came to looting items in pugs to the point where everybody will Need anything BoE like nether's and the such without communication and was really every man for himself.
When I got a transfer to my current PvE server, the entire attitude was completely different. People would always greed on BoE items and people would even pass and allow others to need if it was a upgrade even in complete pug group.
Hell, we even had a 25 man Naxx with a couple of people from LFG (but majority guild run) and we had people screwing about with trash and a BoE epic dropped before Masterloot was enabled when our raid leader was on a bio break and everyone humbly passed the item...
I guess different servers just have different attitudes and different levels of respect towards loot rules and honest mistakes.
Jason Jan 18th 2009 1:25PM
Wrathtide Longbow? Was Blizzard trying to tell us something in BC??
...Nahhhh.
Debesun Jan 18th 2009 1:27PM
Ironic this article is put on the website as I leave a heroic orb-less from a Needing Hunter walking around with 4 pieces of spell power gear.
Ah well. It was self inflicted seeming that I pug'd and didn't pull the pin before the first boss and getting myself saved...
therationalpi Jan 18th 2009 1:45PM
Pass-then-roll is a holdover from a bygone era. Back in the day, there were no need or greed buttons, just a basic "Roll" function. If you didn't hit pass, you were saying you needed the item. The stratification of the roll system should have eliminated the purpose of passing before looting (at least in PuGs), but it took people some time to get used to it. Somewhere along the way, it got into people's heads that there is an actual advantage to the method.
However, I think most people can honestly determine if they need an item or don't. Most players even ask "Is it okay if I need this for my offspec?" Which seems like a good way to handle that particular situation.
Shrubbery Jan 18th 2009 1:45PM
Why would you ever pass on a BoP item you needed? Rolling afterwards is an utterly stupid waste of time.
If it's BoP and you need it, need. Else, pass.
If it's BoE, greed (if it's blue or higher, I usually wait until others roll and need if some other asshat needs, because asshats often do).
Enchanters always greed on BoP items.
Jay Jan 18th 2009 1:46PM
I'm not sure why groups have to roll on shards. Much like miners have to out and find ore nodes, and skinners need dead critters, Enchanters need unwanted gear to DE. If there's an enchanter in your group, have him greed on all BOP items, as they use the shards to purchase recipes and mats for enchants. Your enchanter will be grateful, and will likely give you good deals for enchants. Rolling on shards is unnecessary and creates a burden on those who have trudged through the hardest profession in game.
Emoroan Jan 18th 2009 2:03PM
This seems to be the trend my server has, enchanters greed on everything and get to keep the shards. The only exception seems to be when disenchanting an epic.
That said I can only see this changing with 3.0.8 due to the enchanting changes.
Esh Jan 18th 2009 5:35PM
The reason why the group rolls on shards is because the enchanter is offering their service to the group. If the enchanter doesn't want to share the shards then he needs to pretend that he's not an enchanter and roll against everyone else. The reason why you don't roll for what a miner or herbalist collects is because if that person wasn't there then the thing would just go to waste anyways. A BOP can be vendored by anyone so there is still worth in the item that everyone is passing on in hopes of it being worth more after being modified.
In BC Shards were worth more than what the blue would vendor for. Now days, with how cheap you can buy Dream Shards for, it's sometimes better just to vendor the blue and buy them off the AH.
Balius Jan 18th 2009 7:26PM
What Esh said. You're costing the group money that they would have gotten from vending if you're taking precedence on the loot as an enchanter. Certainly the shards are worth more than the gold from vendors, and hence worth a lot more to a disenchanter than the other people in the group, but other members of the pick up group aren't liable to prioritize your needs over theirs. If you roll against everyone on even grounds (as if you were planning on vending it), you'd get to keep everything you got from the rolls you win. Alternately, you could run with people you know, where each member is more likely to care about your needs as well as their own, and they could very well let you keep the shards you collect.
What you can't do is hold people you don't know to task for not, essentially, handing you cash.
The Observer Jan 18th 2009 1:48PM
Old screenshot is old.