DKP pitfalls and how to jump them
by Mike Schramm 
Jan 22nd 2009 at 5:00PM
Kree's got a nice set of posts about some of the more advanced problems with a DKP system in his guild (he calls them pitfalls, which works very well as a metaphor). I've never been part of a really serious DKP system, but just like with any other economy, DKP can lead itself to imbalances if you aren't careful with how people are getting and spending points.Inflation is definitely a problem I've seen in other guilds -- usually, with DKP, you have a few very consistent raiders, and everyone else can fall behind. And eventually you get a few folks with tons of DKP, so much so that they can outspend everyone else and basically dictate how gear drops. Kree's solutions are good, though -- he offers up "point rot" (points devalue over time, so you can't save up tons of them at once), and a point cap (though even that can cause problems, as people are forced to spend DKP on gear they don't need rather than losing them). The other issues, collusion and upbidding, don't happen quite so often (both of those require players to be rather malicious, and in guilds where everyone knows which gear they should and shouldn't use, you don't usually have an issue), but he's got some good solutions there as well.
DKP was designed to make sure passing out drops is fair, and Blizzard has put all sorts of rules and restrictions in the game to try and get raiders the gear they need without a lot of fighting. As long as your guild remembers that there's always more gear to go around and that no one piece is worth stealing or causing trouble over, a good, balanced DKP system can help you avoid these alligator-filled pitfalls pretty easily.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, How-tos, Virtual selves, Guilds, Odds and ends, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
WoWie Zowie Jan 22nd 2009 5:07PM
don't allow people to bid on gear for their off-spec. main spec people first, then if there's still no turnout, offspec then.
Demgar Jan 24th 2009 6:46AM
Counter to that though, people with solid off-specs are definately beneficial to the guild. If I can give a pally/druid/etc 50g for a respec and have him come do any job I might need that's brilliant!
Macbook Jan 22nd 2009 5:52PM
One thing I think DKP is lacking though is well, DKP for progression bosses.
At least in the system my guild uses (we haven't downed Maly25 yet), people can show up to Wednesday night full Naxx clears, get tons of DKP, and skip wiping on Malygos 25 for a few hours.
I've seen some guilds give DKP by the hour, but that's also kind of weird.
Macbook, http://Moonkin.info
Sidiousin Jan 22nd 2009 5:10PM
I might add EPGP is a system my guild uses already, and worth looking into, we have been very satisfied after modifying the base ruleset to match our needs and raiding habits. It includes the concept of point rot, or decay, as it is termed within the addon in order to establish a balance.
http://code.google.com/p/epgp/
Blake Jan 22nd 2009 5:18PM
We briefly experimented with EPGP back towards our final days of raiding in BC. These days, we're focused on 10 man content, so there's no need for a DKP system, but EPGP worked quite well for us when we used it.
Demgar Jan 22nd 2009 5:20PM
Decay and rot have very negative connotations, and when my guild implemented DKP recently we were having problems with the acceptance of this sort of system (Which I thought was quite nescessary) . We then called it point FADE, which is a more... gentle word, and seems to have actually helped!
Wednesday is fade day! Spend 'em on Tues!
I believe DKP can be either very good or very bad. If it's implemented without taking into account a guild's specific proclivities and issues, it will fail you. If it's well laid out, it might be the best thing thats happened to your guid.
Angus Jan 22nd 2009 6:55PM
I'll go on board saying epgp is one of the best loot systems out there.
Since the Ratio is the most important thing, people with tons of EP and GP points are still in the running with people with less of both.
The fact that you can get 75% of a bosses full value while attempting him means progression nights aren't annoying for raiders as they feel like their effort pays off.
Clint Jan 23rd 2009 9:31AM
Just want to add to the list of people that endorse EP/GP.
It is completely transparent in all its actions to the entire guild. Everyone can download the mod (only officers and/or GM depending on setup can add points) and see their PR - anyone who wants it for main spec says '1' and the person with the highest PR gets it.
Quick loot distribution with little to no drama. Perfect.
Chirri Jan 27th 2009 1:09PM
My guild uses EPGP as well, we all love it. It makes sense, we all know where we stand in relation to everyone else, it rewards for attempts as well as successes. It also keeps standby people in the loop in terms of partial rewards.
Primary and Offspec are taken care of, the only delays are when someone who would otherwise win steps out because the drop would be a more significant upgrade for someone else. That starts a small shuffle of "Who is it REALLY going to?" but that tilts in the direction of goodwill rather than drama.
Meugly Jan 22nd 2009 5:12PM
We do something very simple with DKP that has bypassed most of the inflation.
Prices are a *percent* of your current DKP amount. Set pieces for example are 75%.
This has also discouraged, though not entirely eliminated, DKP hoarding. If you save up 100 DKP for that super uber set piece, it costs you 75 DKP. Next week, next person maybe only had 80 DKP, they got the same item for 60.
DKP is earned for boss kills and hourly, so as to lessen the effect of people showing up just for farm nights to pile up tons of DKP.
These 2 simple changes to an otherwise very common DKP system made the whole thing awesome. Surprised that tons of people aren't doing it like this.
Amaxe Jan 22nd 2009 5:18PM
So, the person who has the most would get it the first week, they would drop down and the person with the new highest total would get it the next week, but nobody would be able to stockpile dkp so they get it every week.
Interesting concept if I understand it right
Firestride Jan 22nd 2009 6:27PM
As posted, this doesn't make any sense. Why would someone with 10 DKP bidding 8 of them equal a person with 100 bidding 80? Why even bother accumulating ANY points?
Lemons Jan 22nd 2009 5:14PM
I've been wishing lately that my guild had a DKP system in place. I've been raiding my ass off helping my guild down bosses that have literally do not a single piece of gear for me, and when something that I need does drop I can already envision the noob who just starting raiding with us rolling 100.
I only need a few more epics to wash away that nasty blue color, but since my tokens can be used by 4 classes more than half the raid is usually rolling on it (when run a raid heavy with dks, mages, and druids), and I'm going to be pissed if some1 who has barely raided at all wins it.
steve Jan 22nd 2009 5:37PM
With wrath, my guild reverted from EPGP to a semi-loot council, semi roll-need-if-you-need. Now that we've gotten up to about sixty people raid ready, and people are starting to bring their alts to raids, we are back to discussing a more formal loot system on the guild forum. Pretty much because of the kind of scenarios that @Lemon describes above -- the dice can be very cruel and the unstated design goal of most loot systems seems to be to take the randomness out of the loot distribution process.
It is hard for me to get excited about a new loot system -- I've now experienced raiding under four or five different systems, including a traditional DKP, EPGP, and a loot council system, and there was room for loot drama and hurt feelings in every single system. My view now is that quality leadership and open communication are going to do more for keeping loot drama to a minimum than trying to tweak your way to the perfect loot system.
Mackendall Jan 22nd 2009 7:21PM
We use EPGP now at Benevolent Thuggery
http://code.google.com/p/epgp/
Here is our concise guide on it for our members :-
http://www.benethugs.org/guide.php?guideid=48
Faze Jan 22nd 2009 5:17PM
Im not really a fan of the dkp system, I just prefer if the 2 or more people roll on the item. That way you leave it up to chance and there are no unfair advantages..... unless someone has roll haxx! xD
konoo Jan 22nd 2009 5:19PM
-50DKP for YOU!
benedikto Jan 22nd 2009 5:23PM
Just /roll. It's random.
You know the thing about chaos? It's fair. - The Joker
Lowangel_thoruimbrotherhood Jan 22nd 2009 5:22PM
I seen to many guilds use pug members while using a DKP system without properly explaining you won't get a thing in this raid. So that pug member is stuck with nothing to show for helping but a huge repair bill. It's low down, and worse then a ninja. DKP makes sense, but in all honest truth a good guild would never have to use it.
"The chain is only as strong as it's weak link."
So putting your personal want over the strength of the raid it's is just foolish. A good raid group is going to hit raids repeatively, your going to get the gear you want, main set or off. Relationship, structures a better raid group then a organized system.
Yeng Jan 22nd 2009 5:42PM
DKP is fine, but if your guild doesn't have enough people to fill the raid and has to PUG them, then no, you probably don't need to use it.