Officers' Quarters: Dressed down
by Scott Andrews 
Feb 2nd 2009 at 1:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Sometimes a little stripping can be useful in a raid. I used to do it myself when I tanked with my paladin. Trash just never hit me hard enough to allow me to keep up my mana. I'd remove some gear so I'd actually take some damage and let Spiritual Attunement do its thing. But as a DPS class, you'd not doing anyone a favor by taking gear off. And then you're really not helping your case if you get angry about being "dressed down" over voice chat.
In this story lies an important lesson for all of us raid leaders -- but first, the naked truth:
Dear Scott,
Here's a long one that maybe you or the readers on WoW Insider can help me with. [. . .] We are a relatively casual raiding guild, only doing 25-man raids once or twice a week, and 10-mans whenever we have the people wanting to go. [. . .] We never force people to go to raids or to spec a certain way. Our guild rules are fairly simple, and basically amount to "don't be a jerk." This has worked out for us pretty well. [. . .]
With all of this, we were completely surprised at what happened last night while we were doing our weekly 25-man Naxx run. Throughout the night, one of our best members (highest non-officer rank, part of our hardcore 10-man groups, had been around forever) was goofing off a little bit and constantly taking off his gear and wanting to fight naked. This was mostly on trash, and as the raid leader and one of the officers, I would tell him to put his (very good) equipment back on so we could continue. He grumbled a little bit and put it back on, and I figured everything would be fine. And indeed, everything seemed fine through Loatheb, until when we downed him, our member gloated loudly on vent that he had done the fight completely naked. He had used Noggenfogger to become a skeleton so we wouldn't notice what he was doing. I was completely shocked.
The officers had a quick 10-second meeting in the Officer Channel, trying to figure out what to do. First off, we decided right away that he wasn't allowed to roll for any of the loot that dropped from that boss, since apparently he thought he didn't need gear anyway. So we told him in Vent never to do it again, and that he wasn't going to get any loot, and (language ahead!) I told him not to be a d*ck, basically like our guild rules state.
Anyway, we figured everything had worked out, until after the run I got a whisper. The member said that we were wrong to get on to him on Vent in front of everyone and that we were treating him like crap and that he was just trying to have fun. I tried to explain that we weren't trying to be unfair to him, and that it was important that everyone know that we weren't going to accept that kind of behavior from anyone, as if everyone does whatever they want to "have fun," we can't get anything done anymore as it will be complete chaos. He said that since we still killed the boss in one try, it shouldn't matter. Even so, if you know the Loatheb fight, you know that it is a pure DPS race, and that every bit matters. Five people in our raid died because we were a little slower on DPS than usual. Were the deaths his fault? Maybe, maybe not. But it's important that everyone give everything they can so that we can do things as smoothly as possible.
The member ended up leaving the guild (along with his family members in the guild) shortly after, because the officers refused to apologize for calling him out. My guild leader said that most guilds, especially more hardcore ones, would have kicked him from the guild as soon as he pulled his little stunt, and that we were being more than fair by just giving him a warning and then talking to him about it.
So that leaves my question: Were the officers right or wrong in calling the member our in front of the guild? Should we have whispered him and made it a private matter, or was it more important for everyone to know that there are rules and they need to be followed?
Thanks,
Xonate, Silver Hand
What I really don't get is what point he was trying to make. That Wrath raids are easy? Yeah, it's been said (and proven) over and over again. That you can beat a 25-man boss with only 24 people? Even the toughest bosses in the game can be beaten with one less contributing person as long as everyone steps up and works harder.
I agree that it was a silly thing to do. He's wasting people's time and gold for no good reason at all. If I were using expensive potions or food buffs on that fight and I died at the end, I'd be pretty annoyed at that guy.
You are your officers had every right to call him out on it and express your displeasure in no uncertain terms. The "don't be a jerk" rule is a tried and true one that applies to many different situations.
However, where you went wrong, Xonate, is that you failed to follow it yourself. By resorting to name-calling over Vent, you crossed the line. It can be easy to let fly like that in a heated exchange. Some people on the receiving end can handle it and some can't.
Regardless, that sort of thing is much worse when it comes out of the mouth of an officer. It sets a poor example for your members, who then think it is OK to start flinging expletives at people when they are unhappy with someone.
If you're doing it to lighten the situation with an over-the-top reaction or for humorous effect, that's one thing. But it sounds like you were genuinely angry and just lit into the guy. It might be a different story if you had taken the worst of your comments to whispers, but to make them in front of the guild was detrimental -- and potentially humiliating.
So your naked raider did have a point, and I think it would have been appropriate to apologize for the name-calling, even if you stuck to your guns about everything else. If you had, it may have smoothed everything over.
Did he overreact to it? It's hard to say. It certainly doesn't seem like the type of situation to gquit over. But I also don't think it's the type of situation to gkick over, either.
Did he deserve it? Probably. Even so, a limited apology from you, and a promise not to repeat the incident from him, and you both could have put the situation behind you. Now you've lost one of your best players and a number of other members as well. Was it worth it? Probably not.
We as officers often have to be the ones to rise above for the good of the guild, even if it sometimes means swallowing our pride a little bit -- or "exposing" our own weaknesses. (Sorry, couldn't resist one more pun.)
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
steve Feb 2nd 2009 1:13PM
I'm a non-officer in a casual raiding guild that sometimes has similar issues (people goofing off a little too much on the 25 mans and wasting time or causing wipes). I appreciate it when people get called out for their behavior in raid chat or vent, because it shows me that the officers/RLs are serious about not wasting 24 other people's time and getting on with the raid. We've had a few people /gquit over these incidents, in the end most of them ended up coming back a few days later a little more contrite. Xonate may have lost one of his best players, but I bet the message the other raiders got was worth it.
Kassu Feb 2nd 2009 1:47PM
Lessons learned:
No kidding around, son, the officers are a bunch of jerks.
Overreacting ahoy.
epic Feb 2nd 2009 2:31PM
anyone else having the first(most recent article) appear for a few seconds before it disappears and is replaced by the next most recent article when the page finishes loading?
Eisengel Feb 2nd 2009 3:58PM
I'll tell you what, if he thought his stunt was more important than his fellow guildmates' enjoyment of the game, he wasn't a good player. Maybe he's good at the mechanics of the game, but being a good player does not begin and end there. If it was a solo game, yes, but WoW isn't.
If he wanted to do a fun run, he could have talked to the officers and maybe scheduled one, and then everyone could have fun, however he decided it would be more important for him to his fun than to help his raid. Since people died, he apparently also thought it was more important to have fun at the expense of his guildmates.
While I do agree that namecalling is never really called for, I would have kicked him from the group on the spot and demoted him one, possibly two ranks and he'd have at least a month on the bench. If he wants to grandstand, he can do it in a BG or Arena, that environment is much more conducive to that, not a 25-man raid, especially after he was warned.
I believe calling him out in vent however is just fine. It's not like he hid what he did. He chose to make his exploit public, so it should be dealt with publicly.
Vlatch Feb 2nd 2009 5:48PM
He was trying to prove something: that his dps was better than everyone else's, even when he had no gear on.
I've seen this type of behavior before from people that - in general - have inflated egos and think that because they're good at playing their class, they are better than other guild members.
Calling them out is the right thing to do, but not for goofing off. Calling them out for being a condescending jackass is the better alternative.
Rosenfel Feb 2nd 2009 1:15PM
"We as officers often have to be the ones to rise above for the good of the guild, even if it sometimes means swallowing our pride a little bit -- or "exposing" our own weaknesses. (Sorry, couldn't resist one more pun.)"
I agree, he shouldn't have called him a "d*ck", but it's the officers who often have to be the ones to settle these things, not "rise above." What is "rising above", keeping it shush? Letting him do these things? How is letting him know he isn't doing what he's supposed to do "being prideful" to a point you have to swallow it?
I'm sorry but if someone pulled that stunt in my guild they would be given the same treatment as above, except we'd do it with a lot more tact than calling someone an expletive like that, where I agree he did draw the line, but everywhere else the officers were in total control and doing the right thing, so to suggest they have to "swallow their pride" or some such is absolute nonsense. Officers have jobs to do to help ensure the quality of their members stays high - if a member who is of "high quality" starts being "low quality," they have to do what they can to reverse that trend.
If he left the guild then you didn't just lose your best player, you lost someone who was willing to cause problems and show disregard to others around him. If anything you trimmed the fat and for that congratulations, but please do work on your etiquette.
Heck Feb 2nd 2009 1:40PM
I think what the author was trying to say is that the officer stooped down to anyones level is addressing the situation in the first place so the "rise above" verbage works here.
And by being wrong and not apologizing it gives off the "no matter what i do it will never be wrong for the sole reason that i am an officer" attitude which in general just lowers guild moral.
Fireflash38 Feb 2nd 2009 3:29PM
I definitely agree with calling that player out. How you go about it depends in large part the company that you keep. Calling someone a dick in front of children or other people might not be appropriate, but that word describes that member pretty effectively.
In general, I have no compunctions about calling stuff as I see it. I know for a fact that I can be an asshole at times, and I will say so. A large part of succeeding in the world is knowing yourself, and criticism from others can expose that to you. For instance, if someone is being a dick, I will call them out on that. No point in pussyfooting around it, if you don't get the point across clearly, most people do not get it.
Now, there is another viewpoint. Some people might not be a[insert insult here], but they might ACT that way once in a while. I like to say: "you might not be a dick, but that was still a dick move."
Hogly Feb 2nd 2009 1:29PM
Nobody in our guild is that stupid. We are a really casual guild (only cleared naxx yesterday) although people do silly things like bring no frost res gear when they were told to, and tell raiders to raid in red gear.
Xonate Feb 2nd 2009 1:27PM
"If you're doing it to lighten the situation with an over-the-top reaction or for humorous effect, that's one thing. "
To be honest, it was more of this than genuine anger. I mean, I was irritated with it, definitely, but the guy and I were pretty close as we had known each other for a long time through the game and we often picked on each other. Perhaps given the context and the situation, it wasn't a good idea to say it because it would be taken as me being a jerk, but eh, I dunno.
VSUReaper Feb 2nd 2009 2:45PM
First off, if you did resort to language in the heat of the moment, then you were wrong. Its very easy in the heat of the moment to get caught up in your emotions, but you should have chosen your words slightly better.
Then again, if your relationship with him is anything like one of my friends (I call her a loot whore anytime something drops she could use - shes a pally, so theres alot of drops). We laugh, and she knows I'm joking 90% of the time until she really does ninja something from someone (RSOC).
Second off, you had every right to call him out in vent. You have to show the others in the run/guild that you (the officers) wont put with BS. Its one thing to joke and play around on some trash thats super easy, but its another to do that on a boss, especially after being warned once. You guys did the right thing by no loot and calling him out.
As for those others that died on the fight (b/c its a dps race) pin the blame on him. If you had slow dps, and he wasnt pulling his weight, then its obvious what happened.
The short and sweet version: apologize for the name calling, but remind him what he did was wrong in the first place. It broke the rules.
Mane Feb 2nd 2009 1:32PM
I think what the officers did was more than fair, if not even going easy on the player. To have 1 person potentially sabotage a run for 24 other people should not even be tolerated. No single player is worth that. It's actually quite rude.
Jay Feb 2nd 2009 1:39PM
The only questionable act from the officers was the use of an expletive to describe the member's behavior. But the use of the expletive was not an absolute wrong, it's questionable and may have been perfectly fine, as it's a relative sort of thing...
If their guild "rules" are actually "don't be a " instead of "don't be a jerk" then actually saying, "right now you're being a is perfectly acceptable. The guild knows what the label means and the ground rules of what words are acceptable and not acceptable in guild discussions were set well ahead of time, just by having a rule saying "don't be a "...
If the rules are truly "don't be a jerk" then yeah, maybe the expletive was out of line... but it would have been perfectly fine to call the guy out for being a jerk, it is what he was doing, it is the rule they were enforcing, don't have a rule saying don't be a then enforce it by describing something not in the rules, use the rules as written...
But even if the rules weren't "don't be a " it might not be any problem using an expletive. Guild culture will ultimately dictate that.
You can argue that name calling isn't acceptable, but then that seems to say that a rule like "don't be a jerk" isn't acceptable because it then requires the officers to call people jerks to enforce their rules, or it requires them to enforce a rule without citing the rule... Calling someone a jerk is calling them a name, maybe not as offensive as some, but that's getting into a game of degrees of offensiveness and takes us back to guild culture and considering how offensive it is "relative" to the guild culture...
caleel Feb 2nd 2009 1:44PM
as a raid leader for a casual raiding guild i am big on group accountability. each person is a contributing member and all the members succeed or fail the raid with their participation. each person is therefore held accountable for their actions, this means many people get called out over vent for their mistakes.
this system has worked very well for us. i am not part if this 'y' generation who makes everyone feel special and they are all superstars.
was the raid leader wrong for calling the offending member a 'dick', perhaps, but if the story as told is true the member in fact was being a dick. the expectation of him wearing his gear was given then not followed, that is disrespect directly to the offiicers that gave the instruction. afterwards bragging about doing exactly what the expectation told him not to do is even more disrespect to that same officer. while this may not warrant a gkick, it would however call for at minimum a saction.
Lemons Feb 2nd 2009 1:46PM
This guy was a complete idiot, and if he was in that guild I'd be glad he was gone. Who cares if a boss doesn't have any loot for you, it doesn't mean you can fight him naked and not contribute. I wonder how he'd like it if people took that same stance when fighting a boss that could drop loot he wants. "Well I'm gunna go ahead and fight with no weapons cause I think it's fun and after all this boss doesn't drop anything for me."
In the end he violated the golden rule. He would have not liked it if he was in the reverse situation of the other 24 raiders. And if he can't man up and admit he was wrong then let him leave, and see if any other guild is any more forgiving.
P.S. they will not be.
Circ Feb 2nd 2009 1:46PM
> I think it would have been appropriate
> to apologize for the name-calling
WRONG.
The officers were far too easy/fair with the naked raider. The gkick should have been done immediately and then they should have posted his name in the realm forum outing him as the douche bag that he is.
You give up your right to be treated with any respect when you disrespect everyone else by pulling this sort of crap.
Heck Feb 2nd 2009 1:56PM
"Throughout the night, one of our best members (highest non-officer rank, part of our hardcore 10-man groups, had been around forever)"
You don't just gkick someone that fast when they have been around forever for one bad day. This is the fastest way to break a guild when he starts his own and starts to recruit his friends out of your guild.
cearrdorn Feb 2nd 2009 2:20PM
So when training a horse do you shoot it the first time it looses a race? He acted childishly, and should be dealt with as such. You don't toss a kid out the window for being socially impaired, and neither should you an experienced long time guild member. If it was a scrub / probationary member, sure, but someone you've known forever, no way.
Clevins Feb 2nd 2009 3:49PM
Precisely. It's one person putting themselves above the others. He was asked not to do that, then lied (using the elixer) about doing it and did it anyway. He was being a dick. Calling him that was a factual statement, not an insult.
And face it - he gquit over this? What other evidence do you need to figure out that it's all about him? Good riddance, don't re-invite.
jboy Feb 2nd 2009 1:49PM
Everything you did sounds fine, until you told him he was being a dick over vent, in front of 25 other people. He was wrong up to that point, and you did everything appropriate until then.
But you write "he whispered that we were wrong to get on him in front of everyone", well, he's right. Unless you know all 25 people well enough to call them dicks in front of everyone and have no one get upset.
Who knows now, but if the officers had simply apologized for humiliating him in front of everyone, while keeping clear that his actions aren't to be repeated, it most likely would have been fine.
Leading people is tricky, and this is an example of that. Learn and move forward.
I would whipser him with an apology for the name calling still.