Are Death Knights autowin in PvP?
Here's a question I'm sure a lot of players have asked themselves when faced against those dreaded Death Knights. Critical QQ wrote an interesting post in his blog theorizing that the side with the most number of Death Knights will win. Think Ret Paladin during the first week or so of Patch 3.0. He posits that Death Knights are such a powerful PvP class that they tend to turn the tide of a battle. To a degree, it's actually true. The very first Arena Master was a Death Knight.
The blog post plays out several scenarios where Death Knights make a difference but doesn't get into too much detail. But the point he makes is clear, and some of you might have actually felt it whenever you played some Battlegrounds -- whichever side has the most Death Knights wins. I've never actually stopped to figure out the ratio of Death Knights in all my Battlegrounds games, but there's no question a Death Knight is a force to be reckoned with in PvP. But are they unbeatable?
The obvious answer, of course, is no. But they sure are damn hard to put down. Blizzard was aware of this and severely nerfed Unholy in Patch 3.0.8, cutting down the duration of Anti-Magic Zone, lowering the mitigation of Bone Shield and Icebound Fortitude, and putting an unnecessarily long cooldown on Shadow of Death as well as removed it from Arena play. The last change was needed, but the 15 minute cooldown is probably too long considering Blizzard also nerfed the duration to 25 seconds. They also toned down the class' burst damage somewhat, including the amazing Gargoyle talent.
The non-healer healing class
So how come Death Knights are still extremely powerful in PvP despite the mitigation nerfs? Have you ever fought a Death Knight and wondered to yourself why your health keeps getting low while theirs is getting high even after you've hit them with everything you've got? Something that's been overlooked for the most part in the spate of recent balance changes is the sheer awesomeness of Death Knight self-healing. Mitigation on separate cooldowns and a variety of self-heals make Death Knights one of the most resilient classes in the game.
As a baseline ability, Death Knights have Death Strike, a melee strike that heals them as long as they have stacks of diseases on their target. Once Death Knights have set up, it becomes very difficult to stop them because they'll wear you down while they pump themselves up. Then there's Death Pact, the legacy Warcraft III ability, that sacrifices an undead minion such as a ghoul or gargoyle in exchange for health. Note that Death Pact works off maximum health and not current health, which means it's an excellent ability to use when their pet is about to die.
Blood has access to Rune Tap, as well, which when improved can heal them for 20% of their health every 30 seconds. Prior to the nerf, the most popular PvP builds were a mix of Blood and Unholy which had access to frightening healing as well as mitigation. Blood / Unholy Death Knights will use either Scourge Strike or Death Strike depending on whether they need healing. Because both strikes use Unholy and Frost runes, this leaves a Blood rune or two for Rune Tap at a moment's notice. That's not even the best part. Rune Tap is off the GCD. Insane? Sure it is.
While not a popular build for PvP, some pick up talents like Bloodworms, Blood Aura, and Vampiric Blood, which add to self-healing. Vendetta is awesome for a continous grind -- not just for mobs, but in Battlegrounds PvP or Wintergrasp. Sure they'll need to land the killing blow to proc it, but they're Death Knights. Killing blows are second nature to them.
Now, although Unholy is still the PvP tree, it's now more common to complement it with Frost all the way up to Killing Machine. Players speccing Frost / Unholy pick up Lichborne along the way, which is an incredible anti-CC ability on a three minute cooldown. Aside from breaking Charm, Fear, and Sleep effects, it provides immunity to it for 15 seconds. Guess what? Just like Rune Tap, Lichborne is off the GCD, as well. Here's another Death Knight trick -- when under the effects of Lichborne, they can heal themselves with Death Coil. So you can add that to the list of effective self-heals.
Understand that these heals can tick for a lot. Death Strike can crit, which sometimes results in heals upwards of 5,000 hp. This means that while they're dealing damage, they're healing themselves at the same time. Because Unholy Presence cuts the GCD by .5 seconds, Death Knights can blow two Death Strikes in quick succession to heal themselves for a considerable amount. If they have a lot of diseases stacked, that's a lot of healing. Ten seconds later, they'll be able to do it again.
The best (or worst, if you're up against a Death Knight) part is, all of these heals are instant. None of them have a cast time. Rune Tap is an instant heal off the GCD on a thirty second cooldown. Death Strike is a heal that is part of an attack, usable twice in succession every ten seconds. Death Pact is instant on a three minute timer. Bloodworms just happen. All Death Knights will have access to Death Strike and Death Pact, while the others are talents. Instant, uninterruptible self-healing on one of the most devastating DPS classes is equal to PvP godhood.
The blog post plays out several scenarios where Death Knights make a difference but doesn't get into too much detail. But the point he makes is clear, and some of you might have actually felt it whenever you played some Battlegrounds -- whichever side has the most Death Knights wins. I've never actually stopped to figure out the ratio of Death Knights in all my Battlegrounds games, but there's no question a Death Knight is a force to be reckoned with in PvP. But are they unbeatable?
The obvious answer, of course, is no. But they sure are damn hard to put down. Blizzard was aware of this and severely nerfed Unholy in Patch 3.0.8, cutting down the duration of Anti-Magic Zone, lowering the mitigation of Bone Shield and Icebound Fortitude, and putting an unnecessarily long cooldown on Shadow of Death as well as removed it from Arena play. The last change was needed, but the 15 minute cooldown is probably too long considering Blizzard also nerfed the duration to 25 seconds. They also toned down the class' burst damage somewhat, including the amazing Gargoyle talent.
The non-healer healing class
So how come Death Knights are still extremely powerful in PvP despite the mitigation nerfs? Have you ever fought a Death Knight and wondered to yourself why your health keeps getting low while theirs is getting high even after you've hit them with everything you've got? Something that's been overlooked for the most part in the spate of recent balance changes is the sheer awesomeness of Death Knight self-healing. Mitigation on separate cooldowns and a variety of self-heals make Death Knights one of the most resilient classes in the game.
As a baseline ability, Death Knights have Death Strike, a melee strike that heals them as long as they have stacks of diseases on their target. Once Death Knights have set up, it becomes very difficult to stop them because they'll wear you down while they pump themselves up. Then there's Death Pact, the legacy Warcraft III ability, that sacrifices an undead minion such as a ghoul or gargoyle in exchange for health. Note that Death Pact works off maximum health and not current health, which means it's an excellent ability to use when their pet is about to die.
Blood has access to Rune Tap, as well, which when improved can heal them for 20% of their health every 30 seconds. Prior to the nerf, the most popular PvP builds were a mix of Blood and Unholy which had access to frightening healing as well as mitigation. Blood / Unholy Death Knights will use either Scourge Strike or Death Strike depending on whether they need healing. Because both strikes use Unholy and Frost runes, this leaves a Blood rune or two for Rune Tap at a moment's notice. That's not even the best part. Rune Tap is off the GCD. Insane? Sure it is.
While not a popular build for PvP, some pick up talents like Bloodworms, Blood Aura, and Vampiric Blood, which add to self-healing. Vendetta is awesome for a continous grind -- not just for mobs, but in Battlegrounds PvP or Wintergrasp. Sure they'll need to land the killing blow to proc it, but they're Death Knights. Killing blows are second nature to them.
Now, although Unholy is still the PvP tree, it's now more common to complement it with Frost all the way up to Killing Machine. Players speccing Frost / Unholy pick up Lichborne along the way, which is an incredible anti-CC ability on a three minute cooldown. Aside from breaking Charm, Fear, and Sleep effects, it provides immunity to it for 15 seconds. Guess what? Just like Rune Tap, Lichborne is off the GCD, as well. Here's another Death Knight trick -- when under the effects of Lichborne, they can heal themselves with Death Coil. So you can add that to the list of effective self-heals.
Understand that these heals can tick for a lot. Death Strike can crit, which sometimes results in heals upwards of 5,000 hp. This means that while they're dealing damage, they're healing themselves at the same time. Because Unholy Presence cuts the GCD by .5 seconds, Death Knights can blow two Death Strikes in quick succession to heal themselves for a considerable amount. If they have a lot of diseases stacked, that's a lot of healing. Ten seconds later, they'll be able to do it again.
The best (or worst, if you're up against a Death Knight) part is, all of these heals are instant. None of them have a cast time. Rune Tap is an instant heal off the GCD on a thirty second cooldown. Death Strike is a heal that is part of an attack, usable twice in succession every ten seconds. Death Pact is instant on a three minute timer. Bloodworms just happen. All Death Knights will have access to Death Strike and Death Pact, while the others are talents. Instant, uninterruptible self-healing on one of the most devastating DPS classes is equal to PvP godhood.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Death Knight
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
malacite Feb 10th 2009 9:29PM
The first Arena Master was a feral druid named Mewnfare (spelling?) from Kel'Thuzad, not a DK.
Zach Feb 10th 2009 9:50PM
The very first Arena Master was Nathyrra, the Death Knight played by Vince Phoc aka Serennia. The title and Achievement was reset because of a long story where Serennia was practicing team comps with other people on other servers. It doesn't take away from the fact that he was first.
Hokuto Feb 10th 2009 10:26PM
For a DK to beat a caster/ranged it just costs two GCDs: Death Grip & Chains of Ice.
I'd call it an auto-win.
Ryan Feb 10th 2009 10:28PM
As a feral druid, with talents invested into tanking. I very rarely have trouble fighting DK's.
I guess every class and talent tree has a different perspective.
For instance rogues are auto lose for me when I am resto.. so I dont really see where this post is coming from :/ sorry
Dekota Feb 10th 2009 10:46PM
DKs? Naw. I really have no issues with DKs in PvP. Rogues. Druids and Paladins are a serious pain in the ass, however.
It doesn't take much for a Hunter to take out a DK. Just use disengage when they Death Grip ya and keep 'em slowed. Wins the fight everytime.
deathyyyy Feb 10th 2009 11:10PM
The DKs are strong no doubt,they got a simple perfect design.
Amazing survival vs melee and spells, self healing and good damage.
In a situation where damage is so spread out and no one heals anyone they surviving and killing as a DK is easy.
But should pvp really be balanced around what is easy on pug battlegrounds in times where they offer no meaningfull rewards?
I feel myself stronger as a rogue than as a DK personally, sure I need to know how to retreat to bandage burst and correct use of skills.
Thats just a lot for the average player.
roflcopter Feb 10th 2009 11:34PM
Well one of my friends just got World of Warcraft. Guess what I told him to do once he hits 55? Buy BC + Lich King and roll DK. He's 80 now and is doing better than me in PvP with few epics whereas I am fully epic'd (all ilvl > 213). I log onto his account sometimes and I do better on his DK than I do my Rogue. I've let him play my Rogue and he finds himself that the DK is much easier to kill opponents. So basically what I'm trying to say is: If you're a DK YOU ARE BAD AT THE GAME.
roflcopter Feb 10th 2009 11:37PM
Retard Paladins are just as bad as well. Epic burst with the survivability equivalent to that of 3 lives.
CactusHam Feb 10th 2009 11:46PM
obviously the game is balanced for larger scale (2v2 and up) battles as Blizzard has stated that they do not balance for 1v1 PvP, and I understand that this conversation is therefore obviously focused on BG and Arena where things are certainly very different from 1v1 -- and indeed I have 2 very different PvP experiences depending on whether its a 1v1 or if its BGs/Arena. In a 1v1 situation (lets say, getting ganked out while doing dailies, or something) as a protection warrior I feel as if I am the most imbalanced class in the game as I find that solo, protection warriors can take any class in the game barring perhaps a protection paladin (or at least has been my experience -- I love thinking about how a ganker praying on what he thought to be a defenseless protection warrior feels after he's been stunlocked and destroyed by said prot warrior he thought he could gank). DKs included -- as a protection warrior they are more of a challenge then other classes, but certainly not as overpowered as I THOUGHT they were before I fought one.
That being said, in arenas I have found a very different experience and I believe I have yet to beat any team with a DK on it. Are they overpowered? I'm not one to jump quickly to conclusions, and I think I'll side with an earlier poster who points out that we haven't had 4 years to form a strategy against them like we have every other class.
Still, my money's on 1v1 prot war pvp being the most imbalanced =D
Jyotai Feb 11th 2009 12:10AM
The real problem here is that Blizzard is going to get the idea to fix this PvP problem.
To do so, they'll nerf the PvE aspects of the class into the ground. Eventually it will reach a point where it becomes unplayable as a tank, and only marginal as DPS.
All in order to fix a PvP bug, and chances are that will never quite get fixed right anyway...
Kia Feb 11th 2009 1:37AM
Auto-win? Hardly. As a ret pally I've never had an issue taking down a DK my level or near my level, with ghoul or without. They're not a big issue.
Odonthe1st Feb 11th 2009 1:45AM
Jeeze, "they are a hero class, so they should be OP" comments are foolish. So you're saying Blizz decided that everyone that wants to pvp should play a DK and so planned to make them OP. They did, from what I've read, plan to make them very powerful (OP) at release and very fun but it's time they were nerfed for real. On my hunter I save disengage for their death grip but in the 1 second it takes me to get back at ranged I'm at 50% health and they're still at 90% and healing. Diseases, hard melee, plate, pets, slows/roots, Healing! Just add stealth and mind control Blizz, thanks. Sure certain classes have trouble with certain classes and it's always been that way because Blizz can't seem to balance PVE and PVP at the same time. But the only class I've heard of that has any consistant success with DKs is mages, that's not balanced. Pallys also, I'm a nuisance to them on my hunter or my druid, rarely a threat. I attacked a pally on my druid after WG the other day and he turned and stunned me and then walked over and started mining. If he had hit me with baby spice it would have been awesome. Balance Blizz?
Pvp in WoW is becoming less fun all the time since the expansion. My perspective is as a player that's just getting into Arena but I've been doing Battlegrounds since WoW came out. Burst damage through the roof, very slim chance of countering any dps class that gets the first hit in, class disparity... It's not fun to win or lose in 5 seconds. I'd like a bit more balance and back and forth, not just blow-CD and win/lose. Wintergrasp is fun but I'm talking about actual player vs player, toon vs toon, not faction vs faction. It's rarely a close battle 1 vs 1, or 2vs 2. It's too dependent on gear or class. Wouldn't it be great to say "Oooo, a mage, I'll need to...." not "Oh dang a Pally, I hope he's in greens..." I feel relieved when I beat someone but a sense of accomplishment? No. Because I might have just had better gear, maybe way better gear, where's the fun in that?
Doing Arena and losing constantly just to get points so you can get gear is poor design and not fun. But you do it because you have no choice. Without resilience pvp gear you're toast. So you do the Arena grind. And hope that some day you'll have the GEAR to be competitive. Not the skill, that is separate, but the gear. They need to equalize classes and gear in pvp as much as possible and it would be far more popular with the less hardcore. If they segregate PVP and PVE skills I think they could balance PVP to an acceptable level. Maybe the concept of dual spec can be taken a little farther and you have a separate pvp spec that includes your rank of pvp gear. At least for Arena maybe if not for Battlegrounds. I know WoW is a shopping game and I may be banned for making such blasphemous comments but I'd rather be working for rank or title then gear. I know Blizz is addicted to the concept that players will do anything for better pants and the gear keeps you playing and grinding and hoping and paying your subscription but would it hurt to make some aspects of the game less "Quest for Gear!"? I think it would be nice if some aspects of the game were not so "Look at my new shoes!" but more "That's right: It says "Champion" before my name."
Okay I'm getting off point here, time to shut up...
Z28SSC Feb 11th 2009 1:45AM
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8011/wowscrnshot020909185639bg2.jpg
All you need to know.
Naix Feb 11th 2009 9:26AM
Meh
Scott Jackson Feb 11th 2009 7:27AM
Is this post supposed to be a joke? You can't be serious... this is the stupidest post I've seen on wowinsider.
wermer Feb 11th 2009 3:31AM
i think that death grip is somewhat too useful in pvp, it's ofcourse the death knight's way of getting to his enemies but i don't think its fair towards some classes that already have to deal with insane damage and self healing and then also when they are trying to line of sight them or drink are capable of being pulled into their field of battle because they are good at everything. i think they un-do all possible strategies (2v2 especially anyway) because drinking is a no go for me(a priest). it's like im fighting a hunter who has more dots a sometimes even more anoying pet and a way to keep me with him.
Rakah Feb 11th 2009 4:07AM
DK + preist in BG = unstoppable
demolock Feb 11th 2009 4:24AM
Heh turns out the only classes being compare here are Dk's and Ret Pallys, which says something on the OP side. In all........ death knights need a lil bit of nerfage ya =P not only do they have many health regen moves they also have a green bubble thingy's name which escapes me, that makes them incredibly impervious to damage. maybe a 7k crit reduced to 1k which again gives them time to regain health quickly, as a lock they are not as much of a threat as arcane mages and they should nerf arcane mages the most in the next patch...have you guys seen pvp videos of arcane mages. seriously its like a spoof at how easy it is to kill everything in 6 second just running to the next spamming one button. and what pisses me off more about mages is that they get massive absorb effects and things to screw with every class. as i am a lock myself i fair well as demo in arena...while in metamorphasis...then i get owned within seconds because i have no other way of surviving. I have yet to win against a skilled DK so i guess they need a nerf or locks a buff in order to have a chance. and arcane mages...well blizz look at their pvp vids... its almost impossible to stand up to that NERF. once i get hit by that anoyying arcane barrage sound i turn to the mage right away and start running to them, dead before ive even advanced closer, they have everything for every class i like to say and they dont even need it with the damage their getting with a single 3 second CD instant which three shots almost everyone >.
Dragoniel Feb 11th 2009 4:47AM
Interesting. As far as 1v1 goes, I win ~70% of the fights against a death knight. Unholy that is, blood is a lot easier to kill despite all his heals. I am an arcane mage.
Basicaly I use frost shield to nulify his frost fever and chains of ice (if I have frost shield on already sometimes I resist it. Sometimes not) and then try to avoid using blink before the grip. The only problem is the DK's ghoul - if the DK is a good player, its difficult to kill it. But IF the DK lets me kill his ghoul the fight is basicaly over.
Colin Feb 11th 2009 7:01AM
ret pallies are one of the only counterclasses to DKs atm, but the darling of blizz is virtually unbeatable.