Encrypted Text: Why the 3.0.9 Rogue changes were necessary
Every Wednesday, Chase Christian of Encrypted Text invites you to enter the world of shadows, as we explore the secrets and mechanics of the Rogue class. This week, we dive deep into the 3.0.9 patch changes for Rogues.I remember where I was at when I read the 3.0.9 patch notes when they were forwarded our way on the WoW Insider tip line. I was in line at the grocery store, picking up a gallon of milk and some sausage to make biscuits and gravy. Reading the tiny print on my iPhone, I scrolled down to the Brittle Yellow class text that triggers an instant reaction from any fellow assassin: Rogue changes.
Just four tiny lines, yet our entry doubled that of nearly every other class. These short, simple sentences would set the blogging community and the Official Rogue (and General, and Damage Dealing, and Paladin...) Forums ablaze in riot. How could we keep believing in Blizzard? My first thought upon reading the now infamous Assassination nerf: "They're nerfing Mutilate by HOW much?"
Let's take a step back for a moment. Trying to isolate a single change and crucify Ghostcrawler for something that was taken out of context is not going to be an effective negotiating strategy. Taking the patch notes as a whole will give us a better picture of what's really happening:
- Mind Numbing Poison now reduces cast time by 30%, down from 60%.
- Hunger for Blood (Assassination): Now increases damage 5% per stack, (up from 3%).
- Slice and Dice: This ability now increases melee attack speed by 40%, up from 30%.
The Hunger for Blood and Slice and Dice changes on the other hand are directly intended to buff Assassination's PvE damage to be competitive with HaT builds in crit stacked parties. While every spec benefits from the Slice and Dice change, it will end up being a larger buff for Assassination. It appears that Blizzard is waiting until 3.1 to give Combat Rogues the royal treatment, and so most Rogues will be floating to the far left or right talent trees until Ulduar hits.
- Mutilate damage will now do 20% increased damage against poisoned targets, down from 50%.
Finally, the real reason that Acherus is crowded with Death Knights named "Iusedtostab" and "Whereisthestealthbutton". Many Rogues will mistake this for a 30% damage nerf to Mutilate: it's actually a 20% nerf. Mutilate previously did 150% damage against poisoned targets, and now does 120% damage. The removal of 30% from the bonus damage only nerfs the overall damage by 20%. So what does this translate into for you? I spent a few minutes before and after the patch beating up on the level 80 target dummies and checking how my Mutilate damage changed; I recorded the top hits from each category. Here's the data:
Patch 3.0.8
Without Poison: 1200 (no crits), 2000 (single crit), 2900 (double crit)
Target Poisoned: 1800 (no crits), 3000 (single crit), 4700 (double crit)
Patch 3.0.9
Without Poison: 1200 (no crits), 2000 (single crit), 3000 (double crit)
Target Poisoned: 1500 (no crits), 2500 (single crit), 3600 (double crit)
These numbers are exactly where we would expect them to be, with the unpoisoned values not varying and the poisoned values dropping by around 20-25% in my rough testing. This translates to a 4-5% nerf to a Mutilate Rogue's damage. Judging from hundreds of WoWWebStats reports, the Mutilate ability only accounts for 20-25% of our overall damage in a raid, meaning that the nerf is not nearly as severe as one would expect.
Why PvE Rogues are rejoicing:
The change to Slice and Dice on the other hand is a huge buff. With white damage making up 30% damage and Instant Poison providing another 15%, we should see another 4-5% increase in damage from this change alone. This doesn't even take into consideration the increase in Deadly Poison applications, the increased burst during the Envenom proc, and the increase in energy from Focused Attacks. This change simply forces us deeper and deeper into the hole that is end-game quick weapons. If Sinister Revenge was a competitive Mutilate dagger before, it is on its way out. Get your hands on a Webbed Death, quickly.
Factoring in the 6% damage buff to Hunger for Blood, Mutilate Rogues should be seeing a 5-10% increase in their PvE damage. HaT Rogues should be seeing steadier damage during low Combo Point generation cycles, and this will help to improve the "my party members died and now I'm doing triple-digit DPS" effect.
PvP Implications:
With Vigor and the Glyph of Vigor, a Rogue sits at 120 Energy (130 Energy with the 4 piece PvP set bonus). Overkill lets us spend 10 less energy on all opening attacks and following moves for 6 seconds. Combined with Dirty Deeds, our Cheap Shot only costs 30 energy. Sitting at 90 energy with a stunned target and Mutilate only costing 50 energy, Rogues can unload brutal amounts of front-load damage into the enemy.
Assuming that the average PvP Rogue has 3000 AP and around 30% chance to crit, our chance to crit after resilience will be 20%, with a 20% reduction to the critical strike damage. With three potential Mutilates in a CS->KS combo, we can assume that two of those Mutilate will crit. Factor in Cold Blood, and we're looking at four crits in six attacks.
This puts our total opener burst at around 7,500-12,500 damage against a cloth class. It costs us our only purely offensive cooldown, Cold Blood, and leaves us with Kidney Shot on cooldown with 0 energy. This is only a bit more than half of a PvP-geared player's health. We're then incapable of any real damage for 6 seconds after this burst, and our opponents have ample time to react. Even with better PvE gear and dual Sinister Revenges, your maximum damage in an opening stunlock is never the sum of your opponent's HP. And this is assuming nearly 10 seconds of you blowing up your target without any interference from their partner.
Why the nerfs were necessary:
Players without PvP gear have been blamed for hitting us with this nerf, as no Mutilates have ever hit a serious PvPer for 8k damage. While they're completely unjustified to complain about the state of PvP without adequately preparing for it, it's not all their fault. After following threads like the Problem-solving Rogue Issues thread at Elitist Jerks, I realize that in order for the Rogue to become truly competitive in the PvE environment, we needed these changes.
Our mechanics simply didn't allow for Blizzard to buff us anywhere without having us completely destroy any other class we touched. By focusing on white damage instead of yellow, Blizzard will have a far easier time balancing us in Ulduar without making us the top class overnight. In order to bring us to a balanced state, Mutilate needed to be redesigned. Now they can safely increase its damage with a clearer knowledge of how powerful it will make us.
Conclusion:
I am willing to trust Blizzard on this one. After surviving patches like 2.3.2 where the removal of Adrenaline Rush from Preparation was sure to spell the end of our PvP viability, they hit us with the buffs to Hemorrhage and Shadowstep. This paradigm shift was one of the most pronounced movements of the Rogue class, preceded only by the mass migration to Mutilate that came after patch 3.0 hit live servers.
We are resilient (no pun intended) and I truly believe that Rogues will be able to overcome the disadvantage that we have been put at until the other burst DPS classes are toned down. We may not top the SK-100 or the damage meters quite yet, but Blizzard has at least shown that they're aware of the fundamental building blocks of our class and that they'd rather build us up the right way than simply bandaid the issue. While this means more pain for us now, it will mean a fuller recovery for us once we are restored to our rightful place: 5% ahead of everyone else!
Filed under: (Rogue) Encrypted Text, Rogue, Raiding, Talents






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Angus Feb 11th 2009 12:16PM
Have you seen the numbers on stacked HAT groups? Put an enhance shaman with 2 of them and they are just insane. Add a kitty and a Fury warrior and it hits points of being nuts.
http://wowwebstats.com/kfsheqxtpvbl3?s=465340-490587
Notice:
1 warrior, 1 other rogue, 1 enhance shaman, 2 DKs A ret paladin, and a bear are the melee.
6472 dps on patchwerk. This rogue destroyed the assination rogue and came in behind a lock and a mage.
Looking at his info, it looks like the only combo move used was Hemo. And that's just to get the debuff. HAT rogues don't suck.
HaT rogues aren't a joke. You just have to stack 1 group in the raid and let them go to town.
Harlequinne Feb 11th 2009 9:51PM
@Angus:
And there's the problem. A HAT specced rogue is a formidable force when stacked correctly with other classes. Mess with the stack or if DPS dies, the effectiveness of a HAT spec drops. The Sub tree as it is now owes it's entire existence to HAT.
Combat and Assassination have better perks (Combat, in my opinion, almost too much so - It's almost nearing the bloat in the Protection tree of a Paladin -).
Zetsu Feb 11th 2009 11:20AM
I'm merely going to save alot of time and repost what I did on the WoW forums under Rogue titled "Rogues injustice in Wrath/QQ/ and more!" and 100g to the person who gets Blizzard or Ghostwalker to reply to me about this thread email tystarnes@gmail.com >.<
Well the new patch is out and after the results well...Not only was I so displeased that I had to create my account on here to express my displeasure but I don't understand Blizzards logic out there so for all you expert people out there Ghostwalker etc. I challenge you to shed some light in my opinion in what has been a dark year for Rogues and there possible decline as a class. (Also, I'm not saying they are the only class on decline, ever check warlocks in PvP much lately?) But considering Rogue is what I play will keep it simple.
Firstly I think we all know at this point Blizzards trying to address the class imbalance issues blah blah blah...We know Paladin and Dark knight are where its at in terms of plate, survivability and combination of either burst/consistent damage. So I just want to ask Blizz: What are you thinking? I used to play shadowstep for the longest time and you know why? It wasn't burst but for PVP it was the best choice for keeping us to a target such as mages/druids etc. That is until you made it unusable while rooted. Nice way to take away are anti-mage game. So after like many others...I went the path of mutilate for Wrath for its burst and you erf the poison dmg to %20 from %50 Firstly being reasonable %30 would have sufficed. Also lets not forget the nerfs to Hemorage and Sinister Calling.
So Ghostwalker, Blizard, let me spell it out for you...You want less PVP burst overall might I suggest you start with the classes that need balancing the most being Death Knights and Retribution Paladins? But you won't listen all I can do is QQ on here won't accomplish anything. Any idea how long it took or if possible for a Rogue to kill 1 of those 2 classes before let along now that you are nerfing our damage, claiming were to bursty against what? Clothies. Its cloth for a reason. I'm just disappointed with the path Blizzard is taking overall but I'm here to say I'm going to reroll as a ret pally even a death knight someday...Just because I'm sick of getting killed to a classes that you refuse to change or address. So not only when I not die anymore but when its over I can tell Blizz "Told ya so." Thanks for encouraging another many of your class/faction rerolls have a nice day!
Huf Feb 11th 2009 12:03PM
It doesn't work like that, you're not supposed to be able to take on all classes. You are supposed to do well against some, and be weak against others. (in your case, against plate wearers)
It's kinda like the bosses in the old megaman games :)
Shae Feb 15th 2009 9:14AM
Hold on. I have to finish giggling first.
Kay. Um.
It always makes me laugh when rogues QQ so much. No offense to any of you rogues out there who are actually upset but actually provide valid reasons, mind you. And maybe this is because I had a rogue friend who QQ'd over every single rogue change period. Like, before the Fan of Knives change, he called it Fan of Fail and would refuse to even help out with AoE period just because he thought there was no point. Here comes the change, and now he's FoKing (that seems rather vulgar when I look at it) every pull.
The point of class nerfs is that they're not out to get you, and the change isn't necessarily permanent. I played a Hunter. Hunter QQ wails echoed so far I think the foreign servers heard them.
And while you specifically may complain about a 200 DPS decrease, imagine what it did to any hunter that would Volley. Sure, I know; not the best place to get your DPS. But for those who spammed it? I can promise you; a much more significant drop in DPS than 200. And BM hunters? The results of that nerf were mind boggling.
To the point THAT Blizz decided to lightly /pat BM hunters and say "Shhh, don't cry, we'll make it better!" and buffed them up a little again. Mind you, this rant-response is mainly targetted at PvE, but you BEST BELIEVE that BM hunters owned PvP and were more than a LITTLE miffed at the nerf bat to the face.
Nerfs aren't something to reroll over. You chose the class for a reason. You wanted to play it for a reason. QQ a little, eat a carton of ice cream, listen to Haddaway's What is Love. Then get up and decide how to adapt to your new changes and dominate.
But if you are rerolling or if you've already rerolled, have fun occupying another three or so weeks levelling up a new toon just because you can't stop QQing over class changes.
Tinwhisker Feb 11th 2009 11:19AM
You're 5-10% buff to PvE estimate is quite generous. After the Mut/HfB/Snd changes, it's a buff, but 5-7% is more realistic.
What the PvE rogues are talking about the is the seemingly ham-fisted approach tot he buff. "Rogues are 6% low? Give their 51pt talent a 6% buff." It doesn't add anything new to the Mutilate Rogue gameplay at all. TG/Fury is basically the same thing but at least it adds a new dynamic to the class.
The nerf to PvP through the Mutilate spell change won't do as much as people think it will. PvP Rogues can still unload all that damage at the front end out of stealth; the only difference is now you're left with at most 2K more health than you were before. Still fully poisoned and knocking on deaths door. Going to try and heal yourself? Better be instant cast or kick will be ready before you finish casting.
Tinwhisker Feb 11th 2009 11:23AM
Oh, and doing most of my DPS though white damage was so much fun in Sunwell. I'm so glad to see Blizzard bringing autoattack back into the spotlight for PvE rogues.
/sarcasm off
Matthew Rossi Feb 11th 2009 1:20PM
All TG/Fury does is add a new emphasis. "Your white damage is now where most of your damage comes from." The dynamic is exactly the same as it was in BC. The rotations have only changed because the cooldowns on Bloodthirst/Whirlwind have changed, and we have a sometimes instant in Bloodsurge.
It's still basically BT - BT - Whirlwind except that you hit Whirlwind over BT as a priority and hit Slam whenever Bloodsurge procs. Nothing's changed there. HS is still your rage dump, cleave if you have three targets for it to hit.
Tinwhisker Feb 11th 2009 4:43PM
Like I said, TG is basically the same thing and the mechanic is lame. GC even said as much, but at least you get the "coolness factor" of hauling around two massive weapons. Granted that doesn't last forever but at least it's something and that's how Blizzard justified it.
Assassination already has two flat % talents that affect all damage, Find Weakness and Murder. (Murder will soon be changed to affect all mob types in the interest of balance as has been done to other classes, I assure you this.) All totaled it's going to be +25% to rogue damage in six talent points; that is the laziest way to bump DPS I can think of.
HfB is a third talent of the same type in the same tree and it's in the 51 point spot. That's three talents in the same tree that do the same thing and none of them have any semblance of a coolness factor.
Lynyrd Skynyrd Feb 11th 2009 11:21AM
OMG, I love biscuits and gravy!
DareD Feb 11th 2009 11:26AM
Chris,
While I agree with your analysi8s for the most part, I think you're missing one point here. Previous to the 3.0.9 drop, it was quite feasible to have a rogue that is not that deep into any one build and still manages to do decent damage in PVE or PVP. I have run a 43-15-13 build for the last month or so and manage to maintain around 2K DPS in raids and hold my own in the BGs (when the Allies actually manage to field a team). Now, with mutilate being nerfed in this manner, I am going to have to respec to make sure that I am either going to the HfB route or the HaT route. While that'll be fine once I'm able to multi-spec, for now it means that I don't get to dabble in all three trees.
Chase Christian Feb 11th 2009 12:00PM
Your comment is very accurate- without HfB, PvE Mutilate is completely unviable. :(
Angus Feb 11th 2009 12:06PM
Welcome to the world of every other class.
Ret paladins see 10 points in protection.
Tankadins put points in Ret
Enhance shaman used to go either elemental or resto, now they are just elemental.
Elemental shaman used to go into rest, now enhance.
Resto shaman go into enhance now.
Tank warriors put small points in fury, but mostly go to arms for threat.
Fury goes to arms.
Arms goes to fury.
Seen any frostfire fire mages not put points in frost?
Ask affliction how much destruction they take.
Ask a priest that doesn't have 14pts in discipline how well they do.
Need I continue?
If you want to be competitive, you have to do this. They utterly broke being a real hybrid build. You are a deep build with enough in the one tree that compliments to make you happy.
I'm all for Rogue PVE damage getting an boost so they get to be near the top or at it. But I don't particularly like being unable to survive one in PVP as a tank or even as ret because they have so many tricks that all I can do is bend over and wait to hit the "release" button in WG. I occasionally meet one that is more than happy to kill himself on my shield, but it is a rarity.
DareD Feb 11th 2009 12:28PM
And this is my point. Why would Blizz want us to be silo'd so rigorously? Sure, when they finally come out with multi-spec, we'll be able to go 51 in 2 different trees, but what happened to Blizz encouraging the dabbler that is me. I certainly don't expect to be the best at everything I try, but I like being able to at least compete. No longer
"Jack of All Trades, Master of None" is now simply, "Master of None"
BTW, sorry on the name foul-up Chase.
darian Feb 11th 2009 3:03PM
Blizzard encourages Siloing for the sake of balance. No matter what they do players will find cookie cutter specs to use and play by. This was the case in Diablo 2, and it's the case in WoW. By Siloing, Blizzard has control over what the cookie cutter specs are, what their difficult choices are, and their approximate expected performance. This is important to their ability to balance the game.
But in addition to that, the game highly encourages specialization. The PvP potential of your spec is almost completely irrelevant in raids, and your raid DPS is similarly irrelevant to arenas and BGs. The key benefit dabbling brings is the ability to switch between the two of these without having to pay for respecs, but the cost is your potential.
I can appreciate your desire to compete, and you certainly can with a dabbling spec, but you have to accept that by straying from the optimal you're handicapping yourself when you're playing a game that emphasizes optimization.
tedoubledy Feb 11th 2009 11:22AM
So after the patch last night I tested out my muti rotation. Prior to the patch my dps was topping off around 2750 with really crappy daggers (Flesh MH with instant/ Lib OH with deadly). After the patch i saw a whole 200 dps increase. I was building up to 2950 rather quickly especially opening with ambush. So then I went into NAX 10 man and found that this really is a HUGE pve buff. With all the buffs you get during raid as well as turn the tables i was unloading envenoms and my white damage was sky rocketing. I have a pretty leet Mage in my guild that i always use as a benchmark and for the first time I passed her even though I died about twice as much (not my fault) on both damage done and dps.
Im interested to see how combat is going to be buffed, but from what i see in terms of lightning reflexes' being changed along with mace specialization i think combat may catch up back to mutilate rogues very quickly. With sinister strike glyph my dps prior to patch 3.09 was around 2680, not that far behind my muti rotation, granted im using better weapons like Kel's reach in comparison to the muti daggers i mentioned above.
The real question is how rogues will react to the PVP nerf. I was thinking about different possibilities. Backstab with glyph and prey on the weak seem like a ok combination or just straight up shadowstep/dance. im talking strictly 2v2 right now. what are people's thoughts for a viable arena spec that will still burst enough to mess with clothies or are we going to have to change our strategies completely?
Candina@WH Feb 11th 2009 12:27PM
This made me LOL
re: tedoubledy
...even though I died about twice as much (not my fault) ...
OK, his article talks about doing more damage in PVE than he was expecting. He out DPSs an 'Elite Mage'.
If he died, exactly whose fault was it? I don't know how many times I have heard Rogues and Enh shamans say: 'It's the tanks fault I pulled aggro' or 'I didn't get any heals'.
Dude, you wear Mail/Leather. You have bursty damage. You pull aggro, you die. Your Fault. If your maximizing your DPS and you exceed the tanks threat, Your Fault. If you pull Boss Aggro and die because of an uber Crit, YOUR FAULT, not the healers (you're to squishy to heal through it).
And PVP is rock paper sciscors. Tanks Break Melee DPS, Melee DPS breaks Cloth, Cloth (supposedly) breaks Tanks.
Now Ranged Physical DPS (Hunters) are... OP ;-)
And Death Knights need a dance with the Nerf Bat. ;-)
tedoubledy Feb 11th 2009 12:38PM
when i meant by not my fault i meant that i died because it was a either a raid wipe and obviously im one of the first to go because im right next to boss and or someone pulled mob while we're waiting for ppl etc etc. I actually didn't die from a accidental pull on my own or anything from aggro'ing, our raids are pretty efficient and don't wipe often. All i know is that i died 4 times while she died 2 pally DI saved her etc based on recount. So if u want to talk technically....it still wasnt my fault, im not some noob that doesn't watch my aggro.
and as for PVP u still didn't answer my question and just posted something everyone and their moms have known since the beginning. Im wondering if ppl will start to switch to other specs as a option with the muti nerf now in place. backstab does do considerable damage with the glyph.
Defoe Feb 11th 2009 1:07PM
Candina he may have had lag or something, lets not jump to conclusions.
Clevins Feb 11th 2009 2:14PM
Um candina? STFU. Rogues don't wear 'mail/leather' they wear leather. And there are reasons other than pulling aggro that can get a rogue killed. In fact, almost any tank that loses aggro these days is just bad, threat's so easy.