Forum post of the day: Great idea, poor implementation
by Amanda Dean 
Feb 13th 2009 at 11:21AM
I'm still moderately excited for dual specs on my level 80 characters, it should be handy for switching between raids/instances and dailies. Cvarto of Proudmore began a thread about poor implementation about only allowing level 80 characters to use this feature. He fears that players will level as a single spec and have to relearn the other options for their class once they hit level 80.GC's reasoning is that MMOs are overwhelming for new players to learn without working with two specializations. Cvarto contends that it still more difficult to learn a completely new aspect of the game, such as tanking, at level 80. I'd like to add that most players have little patience for inexperienced tanks and healers at max level.
I'm kind of disheartened about GC's news that dual specs will require max level. Sounds like business as usual, respecs will still be a royal pain in the rear for up and coming tanks and healers. I was fine leveling my Death Knight and my Druid, but Shaman was downright painful. I was constantly switching between resto to heal instances and back to elemental to grind quests.
Zarhym assured the OP that expanding the level range that can use dual specs is still an option for the future. Some suggested allowing dual spec beginning at level 55. It never occurred to me that there would be a level requirement for this feature.
Do you believe the dual spec feature maintains utility with the max level requirement?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Leveling, Talents, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 10)
Demgar Feb 13th 2009 11:26AM
Respecs start out cheap, use those while you level.
Dual specs are for raiders, not level 20's. Anyhow, I suspect the cost will be prohibitive for a first character to buy at level 55.
percinho Feb 13th 2009 11:37AM
You say 'Dual specs are for raiders'. Why should this be the case? I'm sure you have a good argument for this, and I for one would like to hear it.
Solex Feb 13th 2009 11:55AM
Most people who're interested in dual specs are going to be hybrids: Here's an example, a guy in my guild wanted to lvl a pally with the intention of healing at 80, the only way to lvl to 80 as holy is either to instance grind or get a lot of hard liquor maybe even some bleach. Most people will tell you to just go ahead and lvl to 80 as lolret then respec to holy and get to work.
Obviously you could make the excuse for respeccing holy for 5 man's along the way which may help a little bit but your spells will change greatly from say that one maradon run you did at 50 ish compared to the first time you step into heroic UK, also its arguable that questing beats out 5 mans anyway.
As far as the raid comment, I think thats a bit... elitist. I do know that my guild will be doing it for raids, like when you bring an extra tank for trash and him just sitting in the fight trying to dps as prot they're being told to respec to arms (I'm a rogue and I want the bleed increase :D) or for when we're a healer short we've had people respec to heal for us.
I imagine it could work the other way too, dks, wars, pallies etc who want to dps but would also like a shot at tanking can switch pretty quickly, I'm sure we've all sat there waiting for an hour for a tank.
Wulfkin Feb 13th 2009 1:19PM
I would say dual-spec is for end-game, rather than raid-only, but i think the same argument applies. Firstly, there is very little need for dual-spec when leveling up, as you are still accumulating your abilities and gameplay is much simpler. I levelled up my Shammy as Enhancement all the way, but still main healed a lot of instances pre-60, because as a hybrid class it was easy to do that. The need simply isn't there.
I also strongly disagree with the forum poster who claims that people will have problems learning a new spec at 80. If you learnt your secondary spec at 30, 40 or even 60 you would still have a big learning curve at 80. A lot of specs are defined by their high-tier talents and you would have no experience of those. I think GC is right to say that there's no need to overcomplicate a game that is already overwhelming for new players.
Also, why are dual specs being bandied about like they are a universal right all players should have, instead of a privilege that is earnt? As an analogy consider tradeskill specialisations: Once you have one, you can switch to another for a simple fee, but you have to *earn* up that first specialisation to start. This is a game about achieving things, not being given things on a plate.
Angus Feb 13th 2009 2:22PM
Why not at 60 or 70?
Earning something is fine.
Earning it before level 80 is better.
At level 60 you had a lot of your class defined and just got your 51pt talent. Going Fury prior to TG is not as good and the tree is built around it. Other specs are similarly blessed with nice 51pt talents.
At level 70 you get some of the most potent skills of the class. You have gone through TBC and you are now looking at Northrend and you darn well should be able to use the feature to your advantage.
Imagine trying to level now if you aren't doing it with a partner.
Most people are past the low stuff. So if you can get the gear and abilities to change to a tank in a pinch, you are very much able to get through the horrible 70-77 levels. (Not allowing fliers slowed us down and did not make me appreciate the view any more than I would have anyway. It just made me get annoyed at needing to use flight points again.)
And what if you want to do some PVP prior to 80? Go in with a cruddy spec and deal with it? I did strand of the ancients and WG as a tankadin. My KB tally in one day as ret tripled what I had before. I am sure getting an effective PVP build will help a lot of people that enjoy PVP but don't live for it.
The attitude that everything before 80 doesn't count is flawed.
I will remind you, if this is for max level only, then if they make another expansion, you will lose it. Think you'll enjoy losing something like this after having it? And if it is okay at 80+, why not 60+ or 70+?
jrizutko Feb 13th 2009 2:36PM
Dual specs are for raiders because they came about to appease raiding woes. Tanks and healers had to respec in order to do anything other than raid, and the disparity on the gold burden between tanks/healers and DPS was absurd back when 50g represented an hour or more of farming (pre-tBC). That doesn't mean they wouldn't be a nice benefit for other classes, but this isn't just something fun to add, its one part of a larger solution in game design to reduce the penalty for playing a tank/healing toon. Noticed that prot specs have been given the ability to do damage, or that many dailies now don't require much fighting in your native form to complete? Its all connected.
jrizutko Feb 13th 2009 2:50PM
@angus
People can already respec before 80. Dual specs are a way to make frequent respecs more convenient. They add NOTHING new to the game from a content standpoint. A max level character can set-up a dual spec and then go to town for an A/B switch, significantly reducing the gold and complexity of respeccing. An under max level character would need to go to town to update two specs every time they level in order to keep it useful significantly increasing the gold and complexity of respeccing. Its fine for Blizzard to impliment it at some point if there is actually demand, but think about what it means before you get all worked up.
jrizutko Feb 13th 2009 3:06PM
Additionally, what do people expect the intial cost to be? I would expect something around 1,000g. I'd be shocked if it was under 200g. Either would be a bargain for someone who respecs 2x per week, but a pointless expendature for anyone below max.
jrizutko Feb 13th 2009 3:08PM
One last reason its for raiders: allowing on the fly respecs allows dungeon design that doesn't conform to a standard number of tanks in the raid. Balancing every 10 man based on having something for 2 tanks to do must get reeeeally boring.
isawakumo Feb 13th 2009 11:25AM
I don't have an issue with the 80th level requirement for dual-spec. IMO, I find my Hybrid toons to be the most in need of such a thing, having to by their very definition juggle their specs a bit.
My Main - 80 Prot pally who carries a +2000 heal set in case of fire :)
Muse Feb 13th 2009 12:15PM
Me neither. 80 is fine. Unless someone arbitrarily decides they want to do a level 70 heroic at 70, a DPS-spec can tank or heal everything they need during the leveling process. It's not until 80 that you actually need specialised tanks or healers for content.
And they have a point saying new players would be confused by dual specs. The learning curve is far easier to respec to a spec you've never used at 80. Because at least then you know everything about your class, even if not about each individual spec.
Chipsky Feb 16th 2009 10:07AM
Dual-spec should be available at 60... not everyone bought or is required to have the expansions.
Sorry if this has already been posted... not going to read 9 pages of drivel. =)
Itanius Feb 13th 2009 11:26AM
It's not very common to level with the same spec you'd use "permanently" at the level cap, anyways.
While I understand GC's take on the issue, as an experienced player it's easy to say "I want dual specs before the level cap".
My bet is they make it level 80 only at first, then open it up at some lower/mid level, like 40/50/60.
Jardal Feb 13th 2009 11:44AM
Just because I'm leveling doesn't mean I don't want to run an instance here and there. Especially in the 70s when some of these drops I'll be using to gear for heroics. But right now getting an instance run is terrible. I specced heals to speed it up but we need tanks far far more. I'm not respeccing to tank as I don't have the gear. I MIGHT have the gear were dual specs in the game / allowable below 80.
darian Feb 13th 2009 1:00PM
If you can tank or heal you don't need to be specced for tanking/healing in order to do so, even in the 70s. As a Fury Warrior I tanked everything from UK to HoL with nothing but questing scraps, often being healed by Boomkins, Shadow Priests, Retadins etc.
If you spec for tanking you practically wouldn't even need the gear, but if you don't agree check the AH or find a Blacksmith and pick up the BoE Cobalt gear. The whole set can be made with two stacks of Cobalt +1. 40g + tip for the lot at most.
toddcore Feb 13th 2009 1:31PM
While inconvenient and certainly not the best solution in all cases, the cost of respecs that we've all had to work with all this time did serve a purpose. It encouraged you to carefully consider every talent point and plan where each point was going.
If a person is leveling from 1-80 and decides they want to spec for healing or tanking temporarily to give it a try, are they more likely to carefully consider their talent set up for their new spec if it costs 50g or if changes can be made penalty free?
In addition, the real purpose behind the dual spec functionality is to reduce the extremely high costs associated with players that have to respec multiple times in a week for each individual task they may engage in. A paladin may spec holy to heal his guild's raids, prot to tank heroics when there isn't one available, ret to PvP, and all of this in the course of just a day or two.
The functionality is NOT intended to reduce the cost for people who haven't even put the time and effort into their character to finish leveling them, much less have a genuine need to frequently respec. I leveled my paladin from 10-58 as prot and from 58-70 and then 70-80 as holy because having increased group utility was important to me as I was leveling. Doing so was *completely optional* and a decision that I made, it never even occurred to me that I should feel "slapped in the face" because I couldn't do all things at all times without any associated cost.
TLDR: If you aren't 80 yet you'd have a *very* hard time convincing anyone that you have a legitimate need to respec so frequently that the current system is unreasonable. And if you're playing a hybrid then A) having the potential to fill multiple roles but not all roles at one time is a class feature, if you don't like it re-roll and B) game mechanics have already been changed extensively to allow you to spec holy/resto/prot/whatever and still level and grind quite efficiently if you choose to do so.
DragonFireKai Feb 13th 2009 11:27AM
It certainly retains some utility for the raider or pvper, but I do agree that by sticking it in at the cap, it loses a lot of it's utility.
Aleysha Feb 13th 2009 11:29AM
Well, lvl 80's have an in-game life too. So, yes.
But a for full utility it should be open from the moment you get your 1st talent point.
DNathan Feb 13th 2009 11:29AM
Yeah- I think this is a missed shot for Blizz to limit duel specs to level 80. There is a lot more patience for people learning how to heal and tank pre-80 (especially pre 60). I think Bliz should reconsider duel specs as someone only level capped toons have access to.
Delmonico Feb 13th 2009 12:36PM
Duel does not equal dual.
Do you play a rouge or something?