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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsForum post of the day: Great idea, poor implementation
by Amanda Dean 
Feb 13th 2009 at 11:21AM
I'm still moderately excited for dual specs on my level 80 characters, it should be handy for switching between raids/instances and dailies. Cvarto of Proudmore began a thread about poor implementation about only allowing level 80 characters to use this feature. He fears that players will level as a single spec and have to relearn the other options for their class once they hit level 80.GC's reasoning is that MMOs are overwhelming for new players to learn without working with two specializations. Cvarto contends that it still more difficult to learn a completely new aspect of the game, such as tanking, at level 80. I'd like to add that most players have little patience for inexperienced tanks and healers at max level.
I'm kind of disheartened about GC's news that dual specs will require max level. Sounds like business as usual, respecs will still be a royal pain in the rear for up and coming tanks and healers. I was fine leveling my Death Knight and my Druid, but Shaman was downright painful. I was constantly switching between resto to heal instances and back to elemental to grind quests.
Zarhym assured the OP that expanding the level range that can use dual specs is still an option for the future. Some suggested allowing dual spec beginning at level 55. It never occurred to me that there would be a level requirement for this feature.
Do you believe the dual spec feature maintains utility with the max level requirement?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Leveling, Talents, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 10)
Melimasth Feb 14th 2009 3:07PM
the whole max level deal is a bad idea. besides if people would be confused with having to manage two specs then they just shouldnt pay the fee to have a second spec in the first place.
Za Feb 13th 2009 12:03PM
I think it being at 80 makes sense.
I for one very very rarely instance while leveling, and have always been of the mind that spec doesn't matter for that much before 40/50/60. If you can't tank on-level Deadmines (or SM for that matter) with your soloing 'gear'/spec and a shield thrown on, I might suggest the problem isn't that you're in the wrong spec.
As I level a tankable/healable class, I always hold onto some gear to fill the grouping role, but that might be because my main is a druid, and my primary alt is a warrior, and so I've always been used to having multiple sets of gear while leveling, for grouping/respecing.
As others have pointed out, respecing at a lower level is cheap, or should be. You need to do it rarely enough that you shouldn't be hitting the 50g cap before you get at/near max lvl.
On the other hand, at 80, it's a great thing to have. You've played with roles while leveling, and though you may not be an expert "been doing this since MC" player of that role, pug around a bit till you get a handle on what you're doing, read guides/sites about your role, and you'll be doing fine in no time. With a dual-spec, you can have your stand-by, well-known spec from leveling, and your 2nd one to play around/learn on.
For example, I level a pally ret and for the first few guild runs I go as ret, because that's what I know, and I want to help the guild progress. I decide I'd like to try out tanking, and I use my 2nd spec to do so, put on some greens/blues I've picked up along the way, and go pug around for a bit, sucking but learning. That's the purpose of pugs. Once I'm decent at it, I try my hand at tanking a guild heroic, get a bit more gear, decide I want it to be my main, and bam, I'm an experienced tank for the guild, yet while I've been learning tanking, I've been able to maintain my raid spot as dps until I'm ready to switch, all without blowing through my gold.
Personally, I plan on using my two specs for my 60/11 raid tanking, and 55/16 for raid dps. I might take out kitty for resto if I'm regularly needed to heal, but my main concern is doing my best at the two things I do most for the guild, tanking and dps.
If i played a tree, I'd make my other spec moonkin, because I would have alot of shared gear, and I'd easily be able to quest, sneak into a pug, or take on a dps role if we don't need as many healers for a fight.
alpha5099 Feb 13th 2009 12:03PM
I was pretty disappointed about the level cap. I only started recently, and my highest level character is still only 52. And she's a mage, so dual-speccing won't be as important to her. I do have a druid I'm leveling balance, and was definitely interested in trying out dual-spec with her. But I'm also crazy: my other spec probably would've been cat. Woo DPS.
Seriously though, I have a shaman who's been languishing, and I was hoping dual-specs would make him more viable. I only play him with a group of friends, and he's our group's healer. I realize that at low levels, speccing Resto isn't necessary to heal, but I wanted to not have to do some massive respec once I hit 80 to start healing properly for the first time. I was really hoping dual-specs would be available to him, so he could have a better enhancement grinding spec to make it easier to level him.
I personally never expected dual-speccing to be something available to characters right out the gate, but I was hoping the bar would be a little lower. Level 30 or 40 maybe. Gives new players enough time to get a feel for their spec before you blow their mind by letting them try out another one at the same time.
Did anyone else train for inscription once the news hit? My druid was herbalism and skinning, and I dropped skinning to give inscription, which I haven't done anything with yet. I wanted to try it out, and it seemed as good a time as any to give it a shot. Plus, I already had my mage all up in the skinning, so it couldn't hurt to spread the professions around.
Sharkhunt Feb 13th 2009 12:01PM
I swear, some people will complain about anything. If Blizz decided to mail us all 1,000 gold each, there would be people on Wow Insider whining that it should have been 5,000 instead.
Leveling is stupidly easy, especially after all of the nerfs and the optional availability of RAF or +XP% badge gear. Even before the nerfs, healers and tanks didn't need a dedicated healing or tanking build to play that role in a group...not that anyone really bothers instancing anymore pre-70.
Muse Feb 13th 2009 12:17PM
Although granted that only the healers and the tanks *know* this. Everyone else refuses to have a DPS-spec hybrid tanking/healing, mostly out of habit.
Todd Feb 13th 2009 12:02PM
Dual Specs should become available at level 10, the same time you begin learning talents.
Jabadabadana Feb 13th 2009 12:02PM
I don't mind the requirement for 80 because...
This may sound crazy, and may be affected by my limited number of high level characters (2 in northrend, a prot warrior and a holy priest), but why does one need a "leveling spec." As a prot warrior, I find it vastly easier to do, just about everything besides dps an instance, as prot, than as dps. I leveled to 68 before tanking as dps, and it sucked, because I could be hurt. Once I switched to prot, it was easy. At 80, I practically can't die to anything that isn't elite, and can chew my way through small groups of trash mobs on heroic by myself.
As a holy priest, leveling is stupidly easy. All those people who can't bring themselves to heal, need my character all the time. Outdoor mobs aren't particularly scary, and due to being able to be in instances much of the time, he's remained near max gear his entire life.
It's dps'ing that feels slow and painful. You can't pull too much stuff, mobs hurt when they hit, and can be bunched up enough that kiting is dangerous, getting groups is far more difficult, etc. (the exception is my DK, but that's a different rant)
Granted, this may be all due to what I play. However, the sum up is that all the arguments that you need a leveling spec, and it's no fun to play as a tank or healer seem... well... bogus to me.
This may cause an inundation about how priests can bubble, and how other classes have this that and the other thing that I admittedly haven't had to worry about too much, but leveling on 1 spec is easy, and I haven't found myself wanting to respec until I'm reaching raids and realizing that, you only need 2-3 tanks, but you need lots of dps, and even then...
Adbiku Feb 13th 2009 12:03PM
There is another factor to consider that hasn't been mentioned yet; Appeal to the new (Truly new) players.
As it stands right now, the majority of characters created are alt toons for higher level players. Any content considered old is truly a wasteland. Bringing a new player in to this often times feels like a cheap rip-off. They miss out on 2/3rds of the game because everything they do prior to the ever increasing level cap is irrelevant.
Now if we went in and set the requirement to dual specs in the same fashion as death knights, requiring a player to have a character of X level located somewhere on wow's servers, we would find a lot of those alts who want to either rediscover content they haven't touched for years for nostalgic reasons or to help friends or new aquaintances able to fulfill the roles necessary to do those runs effectively.
This would likely result in more appeal to the new or casual player who has not reached the upper reaches because they will be able to enjoy and utilize content the entire way through to 80.
I know the game doesn't start until 80 as they say, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to get your friends recruited and see them able to get some value for the 40 dollars they spend on vanilla and BC? As it stands now the vanilla and first expansion are more of taxes or dues that must be played to even start playing the game.
darian Feb 13th 2009 1:47PM
I'm completely baffled by your train of thought.
I've never heard a new player complain about the old content being irrelevant, ever. They might complain there are few people to group with for instances, or that they missed out on the old raids, but never about it's irrelevancy. The old content is *new* to these people, exciting and fresh. The only thing missing is people to play with.
Which makes your next thought even more baffling. What about a second spec will make people want to rediscover content? I don't see any connection between the two, at all. Not to mention that placing a server-based leveling requirement will only encourage a person to *level as fast as humanly possible* until they meet that requirement.
Of course none of this helps the casual/new player at all. They won't have the money for the second spec, they won't see more alts playing in the old content, and they honestly don't need to somehow justify the old content.
The old content isn't bad, it's just *old* for all of us who have been there and done that. For someone who hasn't played WoW before it's *new*, fresh and interesting. If somehow your friends don't enjoy the old content chances are they're going to be bored to death with the new stuff as well, it's not that different.
Arkeband Feb 13th 2009 12:05PM
Let's face it - a lot of people *still* don't know their main spec by the time they're 80. This is why theorycrafting and cookie cutter builds exist. How would a new player be able to handle, "You get one talent point per level. Spend it in both talent trees?".
There's going to be little room for playing around with it when you're a lower level - it's not even efficient leveling doing instances unless you have a buttload of dungeon quests or are in need of desperate gear upgrades, so let people learn at level 80. Besides, that's what the easy heroics are for, or even level 80 normal instances.
Bri Feb 17th 2009 3:41PM
>>"New players won't be able to afford it so why would it 'overwhelm' them"
When implementing something for new players, which costs gold, and is optional, you need to be very careful about
a) having that option appear to be mandatory for gameplay to a player with limited knowledge of the game, and
b) ensuring that any cost associated would fit within the budget of most new players at this level.
The last thing anyone wants happening is new players buying into dual-spec because they think it's necessary, and having it cost them more gold than is comfortable at their level. The quest rewards and loot drops for those nascent levels are veeerryy carefully balanced so that a new(ish) player can take pride in watching their gear get better, while also watching their bank account grow. It's all part of the carefully crafted new player experience. Nobody wants to reduce new players to extra grinding or begging because of something that's really optional.
And, yeah, GC is right, you're still learning to that point. Dual-spec could be confusing.
Level 55 is a perfect opportunity, where a player is comfortable with their class enough to change it up a bit, and they are getting ready to enter dungeons where sometimes spec matters.
shadowwolf007 Feb 13th 2009 12:09PM
All the non-80 content is specifically designed around being cleared by off-specs. There's honestly no reason that dual-spec would be necessary and leveling doesn't teach you anything about level 80 play.
You can even do a couple of heroics dependent on the group as off-spec without overgearing it.
Genoce Feb 13th 2009 1:02PM
"...but Shaman was downright painful. I was constantly switching between resto to heal instances and back to elemental to grind quests."
Why on earth did you respec? I healed over half of the dungeons i did while leveling as ENHANCEMENT. Just equipped healing gear and had no problems. These days, with half epic restogear, I'm able to heal any normal lvl 80 dungeon as enha also.
At lvl 70 when ppl were epicced I were able to even heal heroics as enha...
I-man Feb 13th 2009 12:12PM
"GC's reasoning is that MMOs are overwhelming for new players to learn without working with two specializations."
Just make it expensive (1000g?) and that no longer becomes an issue.
If it is your first toon you wouldn't be able to afford it anyways and therefore wouldn't be "overwhelmed".
Those who wouldnt be "overwhelmed" and want the option for their alts, would be able to afford it.
Not fair you say?
Paying a chunk of change for the option to have free respecs doesnt give an experiened alt any advantage over a new player. It's just a convenience. A new player can always switch specs the old fashioned way.
Kevin Feb 13th 2009 12:15PM
I think they should have made the level minimum closer to 60 instead of 80. But look on the bright side... Bliz said that they are still looking for feedback. Go give them constructive, well thought out feedback, and they may change their mind. They have said many times that everything they are announcing about 3.1 right now is preliminary and subject to change.
Arras Feb 13th 2009 12:20PM
"poor implementation"? Really? C'mon..it's not even out yet, nothing's final. Let's judge the implementation when it's actually..you know, implemented.
For some classes, being able to switch specs before the level cap might be useful, but I think it's going to be considerably more useful at the endgame.
Boomkins can heal most 5 man instances with the right gear choices. Same with ret pallies and shadow priests. Yes, it means maintaining an extra set of gear probably...but big deal.
Tanking is pretty much the same story. Slap a board on a ret pally and they can tank. The rest of the group might need to make some adjustments and adapt, but it's really not that hard.
Seriously, folks...stop looking for the easy way out and try challenging yourself and think a little bit differently. It won't hurt, I promise
Ogre Feb 13th 2009 12:22PM
Starting at 80 is just nuts. If anything, start it at the original level cap. Much like getting your epic mount, you get your second spec. By that point you'll of been able to reach the bottom of any given talent tree, and let you branch out.
And let's be honest, leveling to 60 right now, you really don't need to respec for dungeons. It's not until BC content that this even becomes a popular choice again.
@the calls of dual specs being for only raiders: you're mental. It's for everyone. PvP&PvE spec. Tank&Heal spec. Farm&Raid spec. Those are just the most common uses it'll have, some hardcores will likely use it for situations like AoE tanking&single target tanking. (DK's I'm looking at you in particular)
Anom Feb 14th 2009 2:35PM
I support it being lvl 80 only. The purpose of Dual Spec is so the Tanks/Healers don't bleed all their gold for constant respec. I know many tanks/healers who spend at least 100g a day just on respecs.
Make it only for shammy/pally/priest/warrior/druid only.
DPS classes you can suck it, you don't need dual PvP/PvE specs. Its not that big a money drain.
People under 80 don't need dual specs. Stick to one spec and level. Besides I would not run with sum1 under 80, who is trying to heal for instances in dps gear. And if people are carrying offset, they are probably greens, and if not, are they really serious about leveling? Why not just level to 80 exclusively from instances, its how I took my priest from 60-70 in BC.
Overwhelming learning curve my ass, thats what normal dungeons are for. You can faceroll across ur keyboard and still clear it. Get sum 80 blues and decent gear, then hit the heroics.
Liam C. Feb 13th 2009 12:24PM
I levelled my main, a shaman, as resto and had no problem, but recently had to do my first respec on my (then) 71 druid from balance to resto.
After the instance was over, I thought about staying resto so it'd be easier to get groups for instances, but I realised it would be too hard to level without the armour increase (15% mitigation with MotW) and pushback resistances from balance talents. Not impossible, but not very fun.
Probably the fourties would be the time to introduce dual specs, I was able to heal through SM as balance with no problem, but the fourties are when you start getting the first really unique build-specific talents.
I should also add that the arguments about introducing too much confusion for new players are pretty ridiculous. No-one will be forced to have two specs, only those who want them have to buy them.
Hoggersbud Feb 13th 2009 12:24PM
Huh, people sure are demanding.
Blizzard, just forget the duel-specs, you won't make anybody happy.