Officers' Quarters: Dual spec, double loot?

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Ever since Ghostcrawler's Q&A session last week, it seems like everyone wants to talk about dual specs, so I might as well give in. A few readers have written me to ask how I will handle loot distribution in this crazy double-speccing future. Does having two easily switchable specs entitle a player to double the loot? One reader details his struggle to formulate a fair and effective system:
Dear Scott,
As I'm sure you're aware by now, Blizzard recently stated that dual specs are definitely in the foreseeable future. This brings a huge dilemma on raid loot distribution. How do I distribute loot when everyone can use it now?
The issue was brought up on our guild's forum recently, and I had not even thought about the possible ramifications til now. Is there any good solution? Let me give a little run down of my thoughts so far.
[. . .]One officer suggested that we up the amount of DKP people can earn on a boss and let everyone bid on the item if they could use it in their dual specs. My thoughts were that this would highly inflate the DKP of the "pure" classes seeing as they only need one set of gear so would be bidding on only half as many times as "hybrid" classes. And that would not be fair to those who play hybrid classes but for the sole purpose of DPS. Also, it would open up the floodgates on tier tokens. If everyone had the right to roll on whatever they could use, they'd be bidding on more than one tier token, possibly alienating the newcomers who could afford said token but just didn't have enough DKP to outroll the weekly raider who already has that tier item for another spec essentially making loot distribution less even across the board.
I also feel that this would encourage too much role switching. [. . .] I feel like people are going to take this as basically a flavor-of-the-week situation. Mr. Druid thinks, "Hey, I want to tank today!", then next raid he thinks "Let's try Moonkin form!", and then the next "I'm a kitty cat! RAWR!" This would be an extreme hassle to schedule against, and the druid would be splitting his gear to the point that he'd have a few good items here and there but no solid raid spec.
A second officer suggested that we stay the same on our loot distribution, making everyone declare a Main and an Alt spec. Initially, I thought this was the best route to go. But the longer I sit on it, the more I have doubts about this too.
Say we have a raid group made out and need one melee dps. We have a spare tank floating around that day and tell him he can come as DPS. During the raid, it makes the fights easier if said warrior switches to his tank spec for fights like Gluth but switches back to DPS for others like Thaddius. We down the boss and a tank item and a DPS item drops. Since he declared Tank as his main, does he have to forgo the DPS item even though it could be a huge upgrade to him?
I may be overthinking this problem, but it's been chewing at me since I've read the news. How do you think your guild will handle it?
Thanks,
Perplexed Paladin
I've been overthinking it myself lately. My officers and I have been grappling with this issue for a few days now, bouncing posts back and forth in our private forum. I'm not going to claim to have definitive answers in this column, so look elsewhere if you want to read an authoritative solution. I'm just going to bounce ideas around, and I invite all of our readers out there to post their ideas below. With a little bit of community thought-sharing, and some experience under our belts once these situations start cropping up, we'll get it all sorted out eventually.
Perplexed, I almost wish my guild were using DKP like you are. We dropped it for this expansion and it's going to make life more difficult for us when this dual spec feature becomes a reality. I'll get into that conundrum later. For now, let's look at how DKP will be affected.
The beauty of DKP is that you have to make sure you really want an item before you bid on it. You have a finite resource that must be spent wisely. Players will be reluctant to bid recklessly for offspec drops. This facet of the system, in and of itself, will police most of your worries, Perplexed.
Assuming you're using a zero-sum system, newer players with fewer points will eventually get their chances, even if some old-timers get an offspec drop or two first. It's just the nature of the beast.
The raiders who jump from spec to spec are going find that they are far less effective than raiders who have stuck with one spec. If they want to spend their points on three or four different specs, that's their prerogative. You can't tell someone how to spend their points. But they shouldn't be surprised when they are asked to sit out for someone who's better geared at their role. Also, most players do eventually find a spec that they want to play most of the time, even if it takes a couple of weeks of experimentation to figure it out. So I wouldn't consider this a major concern.
As far as your tank/DPS example goes, the easy answer is to let the player bid on the items she wants. She'll be spreading herself thin if she goes for two specs at once. The smart bet for hybrids will be to gear up one spec and then a second spec once the first spec is complete. But again, it's going to be up to her. They're her points.
If you start telling people what they can and can't bid on, you're making extra work for yourself and opening yourself up for drama. So one school of thought is to let the DKP do its work and let the chips fall where they may. In essence, you'd be ignoring the dual spec option and just allowing people to gear up as they've always done. If you want to discount offspec items, as many guilds do, that can only help the inflation problem.
Your point about inflation for pure DPS classes is a good one. It's true that, if all drops cost roughly the same, a high-attendance mage or hunter is going to have an excess of points compared to a hybrid who's putting together two, three, or even four sets.
You could do what Blizzard is doing with badges: use different points for different tiers of content. Naxx/OS/Malygos -- your Tier 7 raids -- would use one set of points, while Ulduar and any other Tier 8 raids would use another. That way, everyone sets foot into Tier 8 on an even playing field.
The downside to this is that it will require more effort from the officers to track multiple point sets. Not to mention that it would discourage people from attending the Tier 7 farming runs if they know they'll never be able to spend the points. You may lose some of your pure classes on those nights, but if you have enough hybrids and newer players to keep farming the old zones, separate point systems could be one solution for you.
Another option would be to make drops that are purely for tanking and healing (such as they are these days) cost a certain fraction of the points of a DPS item. That would encourage players to build up their tanking and healing sets first, which is desirable for making sure you have enough of each to keep raiding. It would also mean less inflation with regards to your DPS. Hybrids with multiple sets would still find themselves behind the pure DPS classes, particularly if your hybrids are gearing up DPS sets, too. But the effect in general would be less drastic.
My guild has a very different problem, since we've abandoned our DKP system in favor of rolling on everything. When you've got two specs, you've got a legitimate reason to roll on two sets of gear, whereas the pure classes will only ever roll on one. That wouldn't be a problem if hybrids weren't rolling on DPS gear, but they do and they will.
You're going to have people with a primary spec, a secondary spec, and one or two offspecs. Does that mean you have three different levels of priority, or should dual specs have equal priority for rolls? How do you track each person's spec priorities?
Once you bring alts into the equation, it makes things even more messy. For example, does a main's second spec get priority over an alt's main spec? Does a main's offspec get priority over an alt's second spec?
One way to look at it is that secondary specs, offspecs, and alts all serve the same purpose: they give your raid flexibility for many different situations. So you could enforce a priority system whereby main specs of main characters trump all other considerations, and let every other spec or alt duke it out for what's left.
As a raid leader, however, you may want to encourage people to bring their mains -- and to have flexible mains -- so that (a) you minimize downtime for swapping roles and (b) you have the most effective characters in the raid as much as possible for faster, more efficient clears. In this system, you'd let mains roll on whatever they wanted and only give loot to alts when all the mains were passing. That would greatly discourage alting on all but the most farmed-out content.
However, that means you may be sharding a lot of items that alts would have gotten if people weren't so reluctant to bring them. Someday you may need one of those alts to tank or heal or DPS, and they won't be anywhere near the gear level of your guild's mains.
You could also get into loot drama when hybrids just roll away on every drop they could ever equip, regardless of who would actually use the drops. For this system, you'd need mature, generous players who know each other's main specs. That way, intelligent decisions could be made about who's going to roll and who's going to pass. Given that my guild has such players, we're leaning toward this system right now.
A third option is far more complex but also probably the most fair. You would allow people to roll based on some combination of the following priorities: main character, primary spec; main character, secondary spec; alt character, primary spec; alt character, secondary spec; main character, offspec; alt character, offspec. Yes, that's six different priority levels. You can order them as you see fit, and you can combine them into equivalent categories. However, you still need to keep track of every player's spec priorities. And when loot drops, you'll have to establish who wants to roll on it and for which priority level.
Here's one way it could work. Suppose you combine priorities and assign each level a letter for easy reference, like so:
A-level priority: main character, primary specs
B-level priority: main character, secondary specs and alt character, primary specs
C-level priority: alt character, secondary specs, and offspecs for any character
Then you could ask everyone on our raiding roster who played any kind of hybrid class, main or alt, to post their priority level for each spec. That way you'd have it all in writing should any controversies arise. And you can also make sure that people understand what the priority levels mean before everyone finds themselves in a loot-assignment situation.
When loot does drop, whoever wants to roll should roll, but they should also identify the priority level of their roll at the same time. For example, a player would have to type B before she types /random. That way, the raid leader can quickly scan down the chat log, picking out the highest roll of the highest priority level. If there's only one A roll, then the decision is already made.
In a DKP system, pure classes come out ahead. When you're rolling for loot, pure classes are at a disadvantage. By making your A-level priority a single spec in a rolling system, you're making sure everyone is on equal footing for the gear they really need.
Ultimately it comes down to what type of guild you lead. A smaller, friendlier guild can probably get by with an informal system. A larger guild may want to stratify its players' specs into firmly defined, descending levels of priority.
I'm curious to hear what other officers plan to do once the dual spec feature goes live. Share your ideas below!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Connor Feb 16th 2009 1:08PM
Our guild, similar to yours, abandoned the DKP system for the new expansion, and have had nothing but success with it. The basic rule is, if it's for your main spec, you get first dibs, and offset gets to pick up whatever mains dont need. People in our guild our honest and mature enough to follow a guideline like that with no issue, and I highly doubt that duel-specs will change that. We see duel-specs as simply something that will help raids when they need a quick replacement for a DPS, etc.
Frorgon Feb 16th 2009 1:18PM
My guild uses a dkp bidding system. There is a minimum bid for non-tier and a higher minimum for tier items. We usually cap the dkp someone can have as well. This assures that the more frequent raiders who really want something pretty much have first dibs because they'll have the most dkp. It also allows new people not to have to sit at the bottom of a list and wait ages to get gear. It's worked out for us for a while. People who complain are usually loot whores.
We haven't even thought about ramifications of duel spec. We're likely to go with option 3. We all know that the guild master is the main tank, it's what he does 90% of the time. Why would he start bidding against fury warriors and dps death knights? I just assume what we'll do is say pick a main spec now and stick with it. If they change and we don't need what they've changed to they're not going to get a spot in the raid. If we do need them to change, there's not likely going to be many other people rolling against them anyway.
Karsuth Feb 16th 2009 1:08PM
This makes me so happy we do not use the DKP system. Granted we are a casual raiding guild. We use a simple SKG system and have determined that if you decide you want an item (for either of your specs) you'll go down on the list. If no one wants it, it gets sharded. Easy. Get it, go down on list. No one wants it, shard it.
After spending a couple years with SKG through BC raiding and now into Northrend I must say it is probably one of the fairest, easily managed and straightforward, no-drama methods to go.
I cannot speak for large raiding guilds however and whether SKG would work for them, so I won't try.
Zul Feb 16th 2009 2:33PM
TBH I don't see how dual specs is going to cause loot issues. Maybe in a really shitty guild with spineless officers...
Mcdreamy Feb 17th 2009 1:10PM
My guild is a casual guild, and we've cleared all 10 man content. Our rules are simple, first rolls go for main specs, 2nd rolls for off spec, if no one wants it we shard it; no limits on upgrades. But again, we're very casual and friendly - we have had a druid and a lock both get a full T7 set in their first weekend at 80 because of great luck with /roll.
Jorge Feb 16th 2009 3:27PM
I'm on a casual guild, and we pretty much have this loot system.
All we do is roll for items with a master looter.. if you want the item, you roll. Simply as that. But you roll *only* if the item is for your main spec. If there are no main specs that needs it, then it goes for offspecs. If NOBODY needs it, it gets sharded. And the shards goes to the guild bank unless we have pugs, in wich case the shard gets rolled.
The spec you're raiding with in that moment IS your main spec. So, if you're a DK dpsing at that moment, you'll have priority for dps gear, even if you tank most of the time. (we agree on this before a run with pugs, our guildies already know it)
I really don't see how dual specs can have any impact on this. (at least for my guild).
Honestly, I think sometimes full raiding guilds get too innecesarily complicated.
vexis58 Feb 16th 2009 4:12PM
The group I run with in Naxx doesn't use any kind of lasting point system between runs. When loot drops,
1. /Roll if you want it for main spec.
2. Out of the people who rolled, check if any of them have won loot before.
3. Whoever has not gotten any loot yet (or has gotten the least amount of loot) are rolling against each other, highest roll of those people wins. Loot master keeps track of who has won what.
4. If nobody wants it for main spec, we /roll a second time for offspec.
5. Anyone is free to roll on it at this point (as long as it IS for an offspec), and these numbers don't count against the number of epics you've won for your main spec (but if you've won something for offspec and someone else hasn't, they get priority on the roll)
6. If nobody wants it for any reason at all, it gets sharded.
We keep Tier token drops on a separate roll, so getting non-tier epics won't count against your chances to win a tier drop, and it tends to even out the epics so that at least you get something every week.
anu666 Feb 16th 2009 5:16PM
It may be a little off topic but...
Tythian you have to realize that you could not play the game without hybids.
Being a MT or a healer is considered a much more stressful position and certainly in my experience a more involving role. People do it because of the challenge but the burnout rate of these players is exponetially higher than "Pure DPS" players.
To add to this Tanks and Healers get pegion-holed into that role when many would prefer to break once in a while. While this requires reorganization and luck. DPS can usually be replaced on the fly with no real change in raid setup, especially in 25 man. (DPS can still do reasonable DPS without optimum buffs but doing Malygos with no aoe healing, or a poorly geared tank on 2d/3d Sarth spells disaster.)
The other side of this is pure dps classes are less likely to roll "off-spec" while hybrids generally need to; if for nothing else than to have a break from tanking/healing without being left out of guild raids.
This is why many guilds seek to reward Hybrids by slanting the DKP system in thier favor. Usually this is done through half DKP for off-spec rolls or decreasing Tanking/Healing item values in the DKP system.
With mainspecs still getting priority DPS are not left behind but Hybrids have a chance to enjoy the game while helping fill the basic requirements of thier raid.
A good tank or healer is worth 10 dps. (In my experience people who have tanked/healed, even on other charaters, are usually stonger players on the DPS side than the "pure DPS classes" whos players have not.)
Based on your post though, until you have been a MT/raidleader/MH in 25/40 man content you will never understand why having the ability to break and come in as an off-spec is so important to the health of your raid, and sustainability of your progression.
Eisengel Feb 16th 2009 6:24PM
The only thing I keep thinking is that, in point of fact, dual specs add nothing to the game. Really. All they do is make switching specs easier, which is an ability everyone has. Just go with previous loot rules for 'main' and 'off' specs.
This same inflation of DKP already happened in BC, especially with Druids, but no one exploded. Bear tanks rocked, and resto Druids ate Arena for breakfast (nom nom). Yes, it definitely is harder to gear multiple specs, but unification of some stats like spellpower, hit and crit make this easier for a lot of classes.
As for raids... if nothing else I think this will make them even easier. What if everyone in your group has a decently-geared offspec? Not only can you cherry-pick classes, but now you can cherry-pick specs, and even change them from boss to boss much more easily.
Just take two deep breaths... it'll be okay. Gear your main before your offspec and have fun. :^)
Mr Magoo Feb 16th 2009 7:02PM
I agree. In our guild, those that have viable offspecs are constantly ASKED to respec to make up any gaps or maximise the situation. It would be complete nonesense for them to be asked to play a roll and then get that roll side lined along with someone's alt or other less useful multi-spec classes. (druids being the best example)
DKP is fair IMO. The rest of these arguments are around "officers" attempting to micromanage how other people play the game.
You raided and you spent the time, you get points. You deserve those points more than some other clown who has either spent all his or not raided as much as you. How you spend them is up to you. All is well.
In the "master loot roll" methods, some new guy on his main can out roll a sweet piece of gear on some guy who has been waiting about for this particular piece for ages. This guy might have passed for 3-4 weeks on other crap because he is already geared up and thus been a core member of every raid. (and this is actually a RL example in my current guild)
We institute a 2 week "roll like an alt" rule for new 80's, but after the 2 weeks they only have to average twice a week to roll on anything. Not even slightly fair.
The only suggestion I would make to DKP is one that services the guild's need to equip people. I would give a blue->purple upgrade a bonus amount of "free DKP". (Call it a subsidy)
The same for main vs alt or main/needed vs other spec.
Thus you can actually weight in the need for the guild to max out their mains and alts, but allow grizzled vets to pick up gear they want if they do the hard yards.
Steven Feb 16th 2009 7:19PM
I think there is an easy solution to this. I figure whatever spec the hybrid is when the loot drops is his mainspec. This is the spec that he or she used to benefit the raid on that boss.
I understand that hybrids make sacrifices to respec to other specs when the situation calls, but if the hybrid is in a guild, there should be no problems figuring out his main spec.
Hybrids should not feel entitled to every piece of gear that drops that he can -use-.
Leelad Feb 16th 2009 1:11PM
Don't personally raid regular but surely setting out what people's main spec would be i.e their current before dual speccing spec. and have that as their main.
Then have off spec roll/bidding if no one needs wants for main.
Pretty much as it is now.
I guess I can over simplify since I don't roll in the raiding circles but surely an "as it is now" attitude would make more sence.
Rich Feb 16th 2009 1:16PM
DKP stuff makes it more complicated.
Our guild uses the main spec gets first dibs then off specs get to roll. Dual specs would make no difference. If you are spec'd healy/dps and you are in the raid in a DPS role, you get to roll on dps gear. We recently changed it to fights from raid. So if we need an extra healer for a fight and someone swaps spec, for loot that drops that fight they would get first dibs on healy stuff.
Then again we never had loot drama since we are adults and know how to play nice with each other.
Karsuth Feb 16th 2009 1:19PM
"we are adults and know how to play nice with each other. "
That .... is the best looting system.
Clevins Feb 16th 2009 3:09PM
"If you are spec'd healy/dps and you are in the raid in a DPS role, you get to roll on dps gear. "
1) If you almost never dps, but are doing it that week because someone was unable to make it... is that fair to the person who's in a dps role week after week? And is it the best thing for the raid?
2) What if you spec dps for one fight in the raid (remember, you can switch on the fly with a summonable Lexicon)? Do you get to roll on dps gear from t hat fight even though you're going to respec to heals for the rest of the raid?
Yes, being adult is the best thing.... but ideally you have a set of rules for dealing with things like the above so that it's not only adult, but fair and consistent vs someone taking a bullet so as not to cause drama.
Dale Feb 16th 2009 1:17PM
I really don't see this as a problem unless your guild is full of selfish people, luckily my guild doesn't have any greedy individuals amongst our raiders.
Also DKP is just an out-dated system, we dropped it when BC hit and went for loot council. It's been incredibly successful, people have their MAIN raiding spec and that's the kind of loot they get access to, you can roll on the off-spec stuff when a main doesn't need it. We've had a few people change their main spec and their loot preference changes accordingly.
Inzano Feb 16th 2009 1:19PM
I tend to want to award boss loot on what spec you were for that fight. That solves most of the dps classes issues, but it opens the floodgates for the oftank who you didnt need for that fight, so he went arms, not having a chance at that uber plate tanking chest that dropped. I guess Healers and Tanks will still have to be a Main spec/offspec issue, and dps gear awarded for your spec in the battle. If you have mature non-loot hording players it shouldnt be to bad. But Mr Druids, were watching you..... switching between boomkin and kitties for more gear will result in rogues finding you while you sleep
Tinwhisker Feb 16th 2009 1:18PM
As Scott said, DKP systems will even themselves out quite nicely. Hybrids often spec differently for raids already, the only difference is that in the future they'll be able to switch more easily. Usually, by the time the "pures" have a noticeable advantage in DKP it's because the hybrids have collected quite a bit of off-spec gear already so it's not as big of a deal as it sounds.
For those who use a loot council it is business as usual.
The free-rollers are the only ones who are going to have problems here and the best way to handle it is with a new policy. It's not really new per se but maybe it just needs to become official policy. That policy being, "Don't be a dick." If you have people in your guild who can't handle such a policy, maybe it's time for DKP.
Cailleach Feb 16th 2009 1:20PM
We already have folks who respec for raids, and we handle it this way. The role you play in the raid is the gear you roll on. If, as in your example, a tank comes in to DPS, then offtanks on bosses, you have to ask yourself which role you most needed her for. If you really needed DPS, then that's what the tank rolls on. If you really needed the tank, and the DPS was an added bonus, then the tank rolls on tank gear. Since, ideally, everyone gets to play his or her main spec sometimes and his or her off spec others, it should even out. If someone pitches a fit about it, he or she is welcome to find other raids.
My moonkin main goes as DPS. I also offheal, CC, and in dire emergencies, pick up tank as needed, but my primary role is pewpew lazerz DPS. I roll on caster DPS gear, period, unless the item would be sharded otherwise. When I respec tree in order for the raid to go, I roll on healing gear. That's not really all that hard to figure out.
For that matter, if cloth DPS gear drops, the cloth DPS wearers get priority over leather, mail, and plate wearers, since they are more limited. Only if no cloth wearer needs it, OR if the clothies agree to let other classes roll with them, do druids, shamans, or pallies roll on cloth, etc. My guild and guild alliance are rocking enough that 99% of the time, the clothies insist that the other classes roll with them, but that's why I love us!
N Feb 16th 2009 1:21PM
This is something that our guild has already had to deal with, due to a glut of tanks. Our tanks have been expected, for some time now, to build both a dps and a tank suit so that our 25 man raids (where we need less tanks than we have) are full on dps. The "unlucky" tank of the week will respec, don his/her dps gear, and go about beating on things like any other dps.
For purposes of loot distribution (we use no dkp), tanks (whether they've respecced to dps for the week or not) are allowed only to roll on tank gear, and may only request offspec dps gear if everyone else passes. They are expected to build their offspec dps suits on their own time, and not take dps gear from our primary dps raiders. Everyone's happy with the set up so far, as it keeps us from having to exclude tanks from raids and doesn't negatively affect our dps raiders. The biggest problem we have seen so far is lower than optimal dps from some tanks as they respec.... but to be honest, that may just be me not knowing how to dps ;-)