Officers' Quarters: Dual spec, double loot?

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Ever since Ghostcrawler's Q&A session last week, it seems like everyone wants to talk about dual specs, so I might as well give in. A few readers have written me to ask how I will handle loot distribution in this crazy double-speccing future. Does having two easily switchable specs entitle a player to double the loot? One reader details his struggle to formulate a fair and effective system:
Dear Scott,
As I'm sure you're aware by now, Blizzard recently stated that dual specs are definitely in the foreseeable future. This brings a huge dilemma on raid loot distribution. How do I distribute loot when everyone can use it now?
The issue was brought up on our guild's forum recently, and I had not even thought about the possible ramifications til now. Is there any good solution? Let me give a little run down of my thoughts so far.
[. . .]One officer suggested that we up the amount of DKP people can earn on a boss and let everyone bid on the item if they could use it in their dual specs. My thoughts were that this would highly inflate the DKP of the "pure" classes seeing as they only need one set of gear so would be bidding on only half as many times as "hybrid" classes. And that would not be fair to those who play hybrid classes but for the sole purpose of DPS. Also, it would open up the floodgates on tier tokens. If everyone had the right to roll on whatever they could use, they'd be bidding on more than one tier token, possibly alienating the newcomers who could afford said token but just didn't have enough DKP to outroll the weekly raider who already has that tier item for another spec essentially making loot distribution less even across the board.
I also feel that this would encourage too much role switching. [. . .] I feel like people are going to take this as basically a flavor-of-the-week situation. Mr. Druid thinks, "Hey, I want to tank today!", then next raid he thinks "Let's try Moonkin form!", and then the next "I'm a kitty cat! RAWR!" This would be an extreme hassle to schedule against, and the druid would be splitting his gear to the point that he'd have a few good items here and there but no solid raid spec.
A second officer suggested that we stay the same on our loot distribution, making everyone declare a Main and an Alt spec. Initially, I thought this was the best route to go. But the longer I sit on it, the more I have doubts about this too.
Say we have a raid group made out and need one melee dps. We have a spare tank floating around that day and tell him he can come as DPS. During the raid, it makes the fights easier if said warrior switches to his tank spec for fights like Gluth but switches back to DPS for others like Thaddius. We down the boss and a tank item and a DPS item drops. Since he declared Tank as his main, does he have to forgo the DPS item even though it could be a huge upgrade to him?
I may be overthinking this problem, but it's been chewing at me since I've read the news. How do you think your guild will handle it?
Thanks,
Perplexed Paladin
I've been overthinking it myself lately. My officers and I have been grappling with this issue for a few days now, bouncing posts back and forth in our private forum. I'm not going to claim to have definitive answers in this column, so look elsewhere if you want to read an authoritative solution. I'm just going to bounce ideas around, and I invite all of our readers out there to post their ideas below. With a little bit of community thought-sharing, and some experience under our belts once these situations start cropping up, we'll get it all sorted out eventually.
Perplexed, I almost wish my guild were using DKP like you are. We dropped it for this expansion and it's going to make life more difficult for us when this dual spec feature becomes a reality. I'll get into that conundrum later. For now, let's look at how DKP will be affected.
The beauty of DKP is that you have to make sure you really want an item before you bid on it. You have a finite resource that must be spent wisely. Players will be reluctant to bid recklessly for offspec drops. This facet of the system, in and of itself, will police most of your worries, Perplexed.
Assuming you're using a zero-sum system, newer players with fewer points will eventually get their chances, even if some old-timers get an offspec drop or two first. It's just the nature of the beast.
The raiders who jump from spec to spec are going find that they are far less effective than raiders who have stuck with one spec. If they want to spend their points on three or four different specs, that's their prerogative. You can't tell someone how to spend their points. But they shouldn't be surprised when they are asked to sit out for someone who's better geared at their role. Also, most players do eventually find a spec that they want to play most of the time, even if it takes a couple of weeks of experimentation to figure it out. So I wouldn't consider this a major concern.
As far as your tank/DPS example goes, the easy answer is to let the player bid on the items she wants. She'll be spreading herself thin if she goes for two specs at once. The smart bet for hybrids will be to gear up one spec and then a second spec once the first spec is complete. But again, it's going to be up to her. They're her points.
If you start telling people what they can and can't bid on, you're making extra work for yourself and opening yourself up for drama. So one school of thought is to let the DKP do its work and let the chips fall where they may. In essence, you'd be ignoring the dual spec option and just allowing people to gear up as they've always done. If you want to discount offspec items, as many guilds do, that can only help the inflation problem.
Your point about inflation for pure DPS classes is a good one. It's true that, if all drops cost roughly the same, a high-attendance mage or hunter is going to have an excess of points compared to a hybrid who's putting together two, three, or even four sets.
You could do what Blizzard is doing with badges: use different points for different tiers of content. Naxx/OS/Malygos -- your Tier 7 raids -- would use one set of points, while Ulduar and any other Tier 8 raids would use another. That way, everyone sets foot into Tier 8 on an even playing field.
The downside to this is that it will require more effort from the officers to track multiple point sets. Not to mention that it would discourage people from attending the Tier 7 farming runs if they know they'll never be able to spend the points. You may lose some of your pure classes on those nights, but if you have enough hybrids and newer players to keep farming the old zones, separate point systems could be one solution for you.
Another option would be to make drops that are purely for tanking and healing (such as they are these days) cost a certain fraction of the points of a DPS item. That would encourage players to build up their tanking and healing sets first, which is desirable for making sure you have enough of each to keep raiding. It would also mean less inflation with regards to your DPS. Hybrids with multiple sets would still find themselves behind the pure DPS classes, particularly if your hybrids are gearing up DPS sets, too. But the effect in general would be less drastic.
My guild has a very different problem, since we've abandoned our DKP system in favor of rolling on everything. When you've got two specs, you've got a legitimate reason to roll on two sets of gear, whereas the pure classes will only ever roll on one. That wouldn't be a problem if hybrids weren't rolling on DPS gear, but they do and they will.
You're going to have people with a primary spec, a secondary spec, and one or two offspecs. Does that mean you have three different levels of priority, or should dual specs have equal priority for rolls? How do you track each person's spec priorities?
Once you bring alts into the equation, it makes things even more messy. For example, does a main's second spec get priority over an alt's main spec? Does a main's offspec get priority over an alt's second spec?
One way to look at it is that secondary specs, offspecs, and alts all serve the same purpose: they give your raid flexibility for many different situations. So you could enforce a priority system whereby main specs of main characters trump all other considerations, and let every other spec or alt duke it out for what's left.
As a raid leader, however, you may want to encourage people to bring their mains -- and to have flexible mains -- so that (a) you minimize downtime for swapping roles and (b) you have the most effective characters in the raid as much as possible for faster, more efficient clears. In this system, you'd let mains roll on whatever they wanted and only give loot to alts when all the mains were passing. That would greatly discourage alting on all but the most farmed-out content.
However, that means you may be sharding a lot of items that alts would have gotten if people weren't so reluctant to bring them. Someday you may need one of those alts to tank or heal or DPS, and they won't be anywhere near the gear level of your guild's mains.
You could also get into loot drama when hybrids just roll away on every drop they could ever equip, regardless of who would actually use the drops. For this system, you'd need mature, generous players who know each other's main specs. That way, intelligent decisions could be made about who's going to roll and who's going to pass. Given that my guild has such players, we're leaning toward this system right now.
A third option is far more complex but also probably the most fair. You would allow people to roll based on some combination of the following priorities: main character, primary spec; main character, secondary spec; alt character, primary spec; alt character, secondary spec; main character, offspec; alt character, offspec. Yes, that's six different priority levels. You can order them as you see fit, and you can combine them into equivalent categories. However, you still need to keep track of every player's spec priorities. And when loot drops, you'll have to establish who wants to roll on it and for which priority level.
Here's one way it could work. Suppose you combine priorities and assign each level a letter for easy reference, like so:
A-level priority: main character, primary specs
B-level priority: main character, secondary specs and alt character, primary specs
C-level priority: alt character, secondary specs, and offspecs for any character
Then you could ask everyone on our raiding roster who played any kind of hybrid class, main or alt, to post their priority level for each spec. That way you'd have it all in writing should any controversies arise. And you can also make sure that people understand what the priority levels mean before everyone finds themselves in a loot-assignment situation.
When loot does drop, whoever wants to roll should roll, but they should also identify the priority level of their roll at the same time. For example, a player would have to type B before she types /random. That way, the raid leader can quickly scan down the chat log, picking out the highest roll of the highest priority level. If there's only one A roll, then the decision is already made.
In a DKP system, pure classes come out ahead. When you're rolling for loot, pure classes are at a disadvantage. By making your A-level priority a single spec in a rolling system, you're making sure everyone is on equal footing for the gear they really need.
Ultimately it comes down to what type of guild you lead. A smaller, friendlier guild can probably get by with an informal system. A larger guild may want to stratify its players' specs into firmly defined, descending levels of priority.
I'm curious to hear what other officers plan to do once the dual spec feature goes live. Share your ideas below!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 6)
Krick Feb 16th 2009 1:22PM
I don't really understand the need for dual specs. Everyone should just level two toons. That way, if you want to tank, you bring your tank. If you want to DPS, you bring your dps. In fact, why not level three toons and have a healer too. Then you have all your bases covered.
It's really not uncommon for people to have multiple toons at the level cap, so I don't think this is asking too much for people who are that serious about raiding.
...
Krick
http://www.tankadin.com
Shevaresh Feb 16th 2009 1:29PM
Krick,
Does this mean you never take healing gear? I mean, your main is (presumably) a paladin tank, and is in the raids - but if nobody needs the healing gear, do you just let it get DEd so you can bring in an undergeared healer a different week?
Falcom Feb 16th 2009 1:30PM
no one will like this idea, it makes too much sense. Please get your common sense out of our fanatical rants.
in all seriousness, dual spec's should NOT change anything with how loot is distributed right now. You get to roll on stuff based on the spec you are using in the raid. If no one needs loot you can roll on it for your offspec. If you go as a healer, roll on healing gear, take left-over dps gear. If you go as DPS, take dps and left-over healing gear. Why is that such a hard concept for people to grasp?
peagle Feb 16th 2009 1:21PM
All this hate for DKP... It's a fair system that rewards attendance and gears up your raid efficiently without everyone rolling on everything =p
Still like any system, it requires a mature bunch of people to respect the rules or it can become your downfall.
Karsuth Feb 16th 2009 1:28PM
I don't mean to hate on the DKP system ... I've only ever been involved with it once and it jut seemed overly complicated. SKG also awards for attendance, and yet doesn't require a bidding process.
Manatank Feb 16th 2009 1:48PM
It's still as system that favors the individual over the group. I'm sorry, but attendance is not enough to justify an equal share of the loot. Loot council ensures that the loot gets into the hands of those who can benefit the raid the most first. Everyone gets their gear eventually, but smart decisions about loot priority brings raids to farm status in the shortest time.
The sooner a raid is being farmed, the sooner everyone is geared up.
On the other hand, loot council can only work if the council is intelligent, and is actually acting with the best interests of the raid. If it isn't, then join a guild that has a loot council that knows what they are doing.
Treason of Farstriders Feb 16th 2009 2:01PM
DKP is flawed because its a harsh round robin system which also screws newcomers.
It shards loot that is slight upgrades rather than seeing people spend DKP to acquire it.
Fill ins have to wait multiple weeks, therefore often get the dregs of gear. Fill ins I might add, that your raid would not work this week without.
Sharkhunt Feb 16th 2009 2:40PM
I haven't played with a group that would rather shard something than award it to someone who could use it, even if that meant letting them go negative DKP for the night. The DKP system works best for those OMG items that haven't dropped over and over again, not necessarily for items that there's no demand for.
Every system has flaws. Every system can be modified to make it work fairly in the eyes of the guild. I'd rather have a system that documents who gets points and why than be at the mercy of a council.
peagle Feb 16th 2009 4:14PM
@Manatank
I do understand the criticism that it overly favors long term members, and prevents gearing up new recruits. This too however, has been long addressed with the newer DKP revision where there is cap @100 points paired with a item prio system.
myalternateaccount Feb 16th 2009 1:24PM
Basically what I was going to post.
First rolls go to people who can use it as their main spec. If nobody, then roll on off-spec. Nobody? Shard it.
If you have random people/pugs you aren't familiar with, their current spec counts as their "main" spec.
Uriahworld Feb 16th 2009 1:27PM
I have not put much thought into Dual spec since I play a Warlock main but yeah, this will introduce a loot problem for many in guild management.
Any hybrid class has had to go through the whole 'main spec' loot deal. My guild uses DKP and a main spec always trumps an offspec even when it comes to an applicant bidding against a full time raider.
I'm hoping that Dual spec will not complicate loot anymore then it currently is. If your raiders have great attendance then there would be no need for dual spec'ing in the long run. But that does go back to the fights that are easier with four tanks but the next fight only needs two...
varris Feb 16th 2009 1:25PM
Easy... you declare a main spec and an off spec. If the gear is for your main spec, you can roll as normal. If it's for an off spec, those that need it for their main spec get first grabs at it. If you want to get gear for your off spec, you change your official spec to reflect that.
Maulgrym Feb 16th 2009 1:27PM
Dual specs shouldn't be creating any new issues that you haven't had to work through already. Yes it's easier to switch now, but any guild should have already figured out how they handle main and offset loot.
So now have everybody with a usual main spec and they roll/spend as if they're rolling for that spec. Either pick one and use that all the time, or have everybody treat their spec for that run as their main spec.
As far as DKP goes, I really like a DKP system and was the DKP officer for a couple years in EQ. But, I've never liked how it works in WoW. There are too many pieces of gear that are for specific classes to get people wanting to spend/bid on everything. It might be better now that with Northrend they've made more gear wanted by more classes, but take Holy Pallies as an example. They are the particular where a lot of dkp systems fail, especially bid ones.
Shevaresh Feb 16th 2009 1:26PM
What difference does it make? Seriously, people - the dual spec is something to simplify people swapping back and forth, not a whole new concept. They still have a main, and probably a primary offspec - but it's still offspec.
What makes this any different than say a healer that wanted to build a tank set but not a ret set?
Also, EPGP solves a lot of these issues; our guild assigns full value to main spec, 20 GP to offspec. People get the gear they can get based on their EP:GP ratio. Someone that takes offspec gear takes a negligible hit to their ratio, when you consider we have raiders with 20k EP.
Aleona Feb 16th 2009 1:27PM
Seems a lot of guilds have abandoned DKP systems with WotLK, which is interesting in itself.
Anyway, as GM of a 'casual raiding guild', I'm thinking the simpler the better. Just reading that A-B-C priority thing that Scott posted made my brain frazzle, even if it was based on pretty solid thinking. Its a nice idea in practice, but try applying it in a raid such as Naxx where you can down several bosses per hour.
The whole reason we gave up DKP was to speed up gear distribution and instead rely on having our members be mature and grown-up about what loot they role on (sometimes with careful hints over TS!) and I am hoping a similar approach can be taken as long as we are clear on who everyone's 'Main' is and that they get first roll, with secondary/alts rolling second.
AlexW573 Feb 16th 2009 1:30PM
I don't think dual spec should count as anything different from offspec. It's just an easier way of switching.
Unless it's a special case (say, someone temporarily changing specs to help fill a slot), people should get gear for the spec they are in raiding.
h8rain Feb 16th 2009 1:31PM
This is how our guild is handling loot (because we sometimes grab pugs to fill spots):
Main spec, first dibs. Only one person, they get it. More than one, every main spec that wants it rolls.
No main specs wants, all off specs can roll.
No one wants, shard it.
The only problem with this like what happen last night to me. I was shadow for a long time, but I went Disc in Wrath. The RL asked me if I would respec to shadow and DPS. Which I did, but I did not have a lot of gear with hit (which I was still able to push out 2k DPS, and that surprised me). Now if something dropped that was obviously DPS should I get to roll on it, since I was asked to come as DPS or would I be considered off spec for that.
This is where the situations on what is main kinda goes grey. Oh well. Since I am shadow not, and extremely cheap, I will be DPS for a while. I just need to lookup some hit gear.
Mindreaver Feb 16th 2009 1:31PM
He might have luck using SLS instead of DKP.
The basic idea is that you set a default bid, say 10 points.
People can either bid the default, or half of their points. Thats it.
It tends to let high attendance people who only want a few items get what they want, but it also kills inflation at the same time. Whereas people who want a lot of different items, or who can't attend, can still complete. If you have somebody with 100 points, grabbing an item will cost them 50, and might not be worth it, unless it is an item they really want. Whereas somebody with 30 points might be more willing to throw a 15 point bid in, hoping to snag an off-spec piece from people who are just defaulting.
If there is a tie, just do a /roll.
Anyway, it is a neat loot system. If you have trustworthy people and don't have a lot of drama whores, loot council is usually the best way of dealing with these issues. Especially if you end up asking people to switch when they don't really want to (tank to dps, or dps to heal, or whatever).
Shevaresh Feb 16th 2009 1:33PM
Oh yeah.. loot is distributed like this in our guild:
/rw [loot]
People who want for main spec put in !, offspec /roll.
/rw [loot]x2, to give people more time. At the end, it is assigned to the person that ! and has the highest PR (EPGP addon tracks it) or the highest /roll.
illi Feb 16th 2009 1:35PM
When we do get Dual-Spec. ... what we need next is much larger bags or another tab to hold gear so that we can switch outfits with the spec ... maybe a "Dual Spec/Dual Gyphe/Dual Outfit" tab? :)