Officers' Quarters: Dual spec, double loot?

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Ever since Ghostcrawler's Q&A session last week, it seems like everyone wants to talk about dual specs, so I might as well give in. A few readers have written me to ask how I will handle loot distribution in this crazy double-speccing future. Does having two easily switchable specs entitle a player to double the loot? One reader details his struggle to formulate a fair and effective system:
Dear Scott,
As I'm sure you're aware by now, Blizzard recently stated that dual specs are definitely in the foreseeable future. This brings a huge dilemma on raid loot distribution. How do I distribute loot when everyone can use it now?
The issue was brought up on our guild's forum recently, and I had not even thought about the possible ramifications til now. Is there any good solution? Let me give a little run down of my thoughts so far.
[. . .]One officer suggested that we up the amount of DKP people can earn on a boss and let everyone bid on the item if they could use it in their dual specs. My thoughts were that this would highly inflate the DKP of the "pure" classes seeing as they only need one set of gear so would be bidding on only half as many times as "hybrid" classes. And that would not be fair to those who play hybrid classes but for the sole purpose of DPS. Also, it would open up the floodgates on tier tokens. If everyone had the right to roll on whatever they could use, they'd be bidding on more than one tier token, possibly alienating the newcomers who could afford said token but just didn't have enough DKP to outroll the weekly raider who already has that tier item for another spec essentially making loot distribution less even across the board.
I also feel that this would encourage too much role switching. [. . .] I feel like people are going to take this as basically a flavor-of-the-week situation. Mr. Druid thinks, "Hey, I want to tank today!", then next raid he thinks "Let's try Moonkin form!", and then the next "I'm a kitty cat! RAWR!" This would be an extreme hassle to schedule against, and the druid would be splitting his gear to the point that he'd have a few good items here and there but no solid raid spec.
A second officer suggested that we stay the same on our loot distribution, making everyone declare a Main and an Alt spec. Initially, I thought this was the best route to go. But the longer I sit on it, the more I have doubts about this too.
Say we have a raid group made out and need one melee dps. We have a spare tank floating around that day and tell him he can come as DPS. During the raid, it makes the fights easier if said warrior switches to his tank spec for fights like Gluth but switches back to DPS for others like Thaddius. We down the boss and a tank item and a DPS item drops. Since he declared Tank as his main, does he have to forgo the DPS item even though it could be a huge upgrade to him?
I may be overthinking this problem, but it's been chewing at me since I've read the news. How do you think your guild will handle it?
Thanks,
Perplexed Paladin
I've been overthinking it myself lately. My officers and I have been grappling with this issue for a few days now, bouncing posts back and forth in our private forum. I'm not going to claim to have definitive answers in this column, so look elsewhere if you want to read an authoritative solution. I'm just going to bounce ideas around, and I invite all of our readers out there to post their ideas below. With a little bit of community thought-sharing, and some experience under our belts once these situations start cropping up, we'll get it all sorted out eventually.
Perplexed, I almost wish my guild were using DKP like you are. We dropped it for this expansion and it's going to make life more difficult for us when this dual spec feature becomes a reality. I'll get into that conundrum later. For now, let's look at how DKP will be affected.
The beauty of DKP is that you have to make sure you really want an item before you bid on it. You have a finite resource that must be spent wisely. Players will be reluctant to bid recklessly for offspec drops. This facet of the system, in and of itself, will police most of your worries, Perplexed.
Assuming you're using a zero-sum system, newer players with fewer points will eventually get their chances, even if some old-timers get an offspec drop or two first. It's just the nature of the beast.
The raiders who jump from spec to spec are going find that they are far less effective than raiders who have stuck with one spec. If they want to spend their points on three or four different specs, that's their prerogative. You can't tell someone how to spend their points. But they shouldn't be surprised when they are asked to sit out for someone who's better geared at their role. Also, most players do eventually find a spec that they want to play most of the time, even if it takes a couple of weeks of experimentation to figure it out. So I wouldn't consider this a major concern.
As far as your tank/DPS example goes, the easy answer is to let the player bid on the items she wants. She'll be spreading herself thin if she goes for two specs at once. The smart bet for hybrids will be to gear up one spec and then a second spec once the first spec is complete. But again, it's going to be up to her. They're her points.
If you start telling people what they can and can't bid on, you're making extra work for yourself and opening yourself up for drama. So one school of thought is to let the DKP do its work and let the chips fall where they may. In essence, you'd be ignoring the dual spec option and just allowing people to gear up as they've always done. If you want to discount offspec items, as many guilds do, that can only help the inflation problem.
Your point about inflation for pure DPS classes is a good one. It's true that, if all drops cost roughly the same, a high-attendance mage or hunter is going to have an excess of points compared to a hybrid who's putting together two, three, or even four sets.
You could do what Blizzard is doing with badges: use different points for different tiers of content. Naxx/OS/Malygos -- your Tier 7 raids -- would use one set of points, while Ulduar and any other Tier 8 raids would use another. That way, everyone sets foot into Tier 8 on an even playing field.
The downside to this is that it will require more effort from the officers to track multiple point sets. Not to mention that it would discourage people from attending the Tier 7 farming runs if they know they'll never be able to spend the points. You may lose some of your pure classes on those nights, but if you have enough hybrids and newer players to keep farming the old zones, separate point systems could be one solution for you.
Another option would be to make drops that are purely for tanking and healing (such as they are these days) cost a certain fraction of the points of a DPS item. That would encourage players to build up their tanking and healing sets first, which is desirable for making sure you have enough of each to keep raiding. It would also mean less inflation with regards to your DPS. Hybrids with multiple sets would still find themselves behind the pure DPS classes, particularly if your hybrids are gearing up DPS sets, too. But the effect in general would be less drastic.
My guild has a very different problem, since we've abandoned our DKP system in favor of rolling on everything. When you've got two specs, you've got a legitimate reason to roll on two sets of gear, whereas the pure classes will only ever roll on one. That wouldn't be a problem if hybrids weren't rolling on DPS gear, but they do and they will.
You're going to have people with a primary spec, a secondary spec, and one or two offspecs. Does that mean you have three different levels of priority, or should dual specs have equal priority for rolls? How do you track each person's spec priorities?
Once you bring alts into the equation, it makes things even more messy. For example, does a main's second spec get priority over an alt's main spec? Does a main's offspec get priority over an alt's second spec?
One way to look at it is that secondary specs, offspecs, and alts all serve the same purpose: they give your raid flexibility for many different situations. So you could enforce a priority system whereby main specs of main characters trump all other considerations, and let every other spec or alt duke it out for what's left.
As a raid leader, however, you may want to encourage people to bring their mains -- and to have flexible mains -- so that (a) you minimize downtime for swapping roles and (b) you have the most effective characters in the raid as much as possible for faster, more efficient clears. In this system, you'd let mains roll on whatever they wanted and only give loot to alts when all the mains were passing. That would greatly discourage alting on all but the most farmed-out content.
However, that means you may be sharding a lot of items that alts would have gotten if people weren't so reluctant to bring them. Someday you may need one of those alts to tank or heal or DPS, and they won't be anywhere near the gear level of your guild's mains.
You could also get into loot drama when hybrids just roll away on every drop they could ever equip, regardless of who would actually use the drops. For this system, you'd need mature, generous players who know each other's main specs. That way, intelligent decisions could be made about who's going to roll and who's going to pass. Given that my guild has such players, we're leaning toward this system right now.
A third option is far more complex but also probably the most fair. You would allow people to roll based on some combination of the following priorities: main character, primary spec; main character, secondary spec; alt character, primary spec; alt character, secondary spec; main character, offspec; alt character, offspec. Yes, that's six different priority levels. You can order them as you see fit, and you can combine them into equivalent categories. However, you still need to keep track of every player's spec priorities. And when loot drops, you'll have to establish who wants to roll on it and for which priority level.
Here's one way it could work. Suppose you combine priorities and assign each level a letter for easy reference, like so:
A-level priority: main character, primary specs
B-level priority: main character, secondary specs and alt character, primary specs
C-level priority: alt character, secondary specs, and offspecs for any character
Then you could ask everyone on our raiding roster who played any kind of hybrid class, main or alt, to post their priority level for each spec. That way you'd have it all in writing should any controversies arise. And you can also make sure that people understand what the priority levels mean before everyone finds themselves in a loot-assignment situation.
When loot does drop, whoever wants to roll should roll, but they should also identify the priority level of their roll at the same time. For example, a player would have to type B before she types /random. That way, the raid leader can quickly scan down the chat log, picking out the highest roll of the highest priority level. If there's only one A roll, then the decision is already made.
In a DKP system, pure classes come out ahead. When you're rolling for loot, pure classes are at a disadvantage. By making your A-level priority a single spec in a rolling system, you're making sure everyone is on equal footing for the gear they really need.
Ultimately it comes down to what type of guild you lead. A smaller, friendlier guild can probably get by with an informal system. A larger guild may want to stratify its players' specs into firmly defined, descending levels of priority.
I'm curious to hear what other officers plan to do once the dual spec feature goes live. Share your ideas below!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
SimpleSurvival Feb 16th 2009 2:25PM
Oh the drama of loot...
In my experience, any loot 'system' meant to keep people from being jerks will just cause drama, be exploited, and cause overall annoyance.
I really wish I could find a guild that didn't need to enforce the "Don't be a jerk" rule...
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I'd bet our guild is going to take their broken DKP system and do Main-spec, Dual-spec, then off-spec priority. Traditionally the current 'off-spec' category has been limited to a single spec. the '3rd spec' has always been handled by "Roll for off-spec... Nobody wants for off-spec?" "I'll take it"
My only problem is that I'm forced to re-spec heals for 25m because the GM is MT and his officers are OT, and I can't roll main-spec vs them, since 25m progression gets slowed down when a healer is taking all the tank gear...
Yaikage Feb 16th 2009 2:26PM
My guild doesn't really have much of a problem. We're using a bid on dkp system that's purely an auction. MS dibs first, if no one wants then OS bids and then if no one still wants we give it to newbies with no dkp. The way I see it is that this system has the following problems:
1- It could be possible to neglect newcomers. Well if an item drops the veterens really have heated bidding wars, i've seen 2-3 full naxx clears worth of dkp go on single items so the difference doesn't go as far. The only real only real people who have a TON of dkp are the tanks and our only shadow priest (WTF i know).
2- Give gear for attendees instead of max benefit. We have a relatively large guild (200 different members, 400 with alts, over 100 80's if you include alts) this means that we run a main 25man and several 10mans. The 10mans just run off the /roll100 rule and it meant to gear new people up and teach them fights. Usually those who do get picked for the 25man already have a decent enough set that usually we don't come to this problem.
3- Tier tokens- I really don't see this as much of a problem, there's plenty of non tier gear that you can spend dkp on. And teir tokens will likely be bid WAY up compared to the other gear meaning when you spend that token you will pay attention and not waste potentially the entire raids DKP on something you might not be playing anytime soon or a minor UG.
Did I mention that after a month of running 25mans,alot of gear is going for 1/2 dkp since most people already have it and that the tanking gear is being sharded because tanks geared up so much faster?
Draim Feb 16th 2009 2:27PM
first off: "and then the next "I'm a kitty cat! RAWR!"" win, just win
on topic: We're still with a dkp system, we actually do it by % so say you were hording you dkp for The Turning Tide you may have 600 dkp because you've been afraid to spend any so that you get your weapon but when your spending 45% for it you're all of a sudden right in there with everyone else. This system has also helped us tons when we have new members coming in.
I know some people have switched from dkp and I'll grant you this is coming from the perspective of a 25man guild aimed towards server firsts etc but I would never join a raiding guild that wasn't using some sort of dkp, the other methods I think just aren't sufficient. If I take a couple weeks off because of work or something I damn well should be at the bottom of the priority to people who have been coming every run if they still need things.
Our current plan I believe is to basically stick to what we've always done. You have a main spec, this is the spec that we need you to be geared up for raiding. Main spec spends dkp and gets priority over everything, if no main spec wants it then it goes for a /roll for off spec. I've seen some guilds where they do a smaller % for the off spec instead of a roll. I think its best in the end to keep it this way, at least for more "hardcore" guilds, to be honest it creates havoc to have people switching specs back and forth at whim, we need people geared up in their spec for the raid if we want to do our best and beat everyone else :) If you want to gear out 4 specs at once well then you likely won't be geared enough to be a invited as often and therefore will get even less gear :)
Ryan Smith Feb 16th 2009 2:33PM
We dumped DKP for EPGP, but for all intensive purposes, its the same (points for participation/priority based on participation - gear already looted).
We make people specify their main spec before they can raid. There is one round of "bids" (not really bids, just interest expressed then EPGP is checked for winner) that is for main spec interest. If it makes it through this round with no interest, then a second round for off spec is asked.
Main spec gets first shot at an item, this way our raid group gets geared out in main spec first before off spec gear is dispensed. This also makes it nice for a new raider to get main spec gear with a low priority over a long time raider with lots of priority, but wants gear for a spec they may play occasionally.
Smitty
hold up Feb 16th 2009 2:59PM
Dear Smitty,
It's "for all intents and purposes".
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_saying_'all_intents_and_purposes'_or_'all_intense_purposes'
Ariiyana Feb 16th 2009 2:46PM
In my guild, everyone has a raid spec. That is their normal spec, and -normally- my raid leaders never ask someone to respec to something that's not their normal raid spec.
We use a dkp system in which items cost a flat amount of dkp and you earn dkp based on items looted, with extra points given for being on time to raid.
Raid specs get priority on gear that drops. For example, if tank gear drops all of the tanks bid on it. The tank with the highest dkp gets it. If no tanks need it, it goes up for offspec /rolls.
In our guild, offspec loot doesn't cost dkp. The reasoning is that we try not to ask people to respec. But there comes a time when we might need to, and we want the respeccing person to have the correct gear for it and not be punished (by spending extra dkp).
I don't see this changing when the Dual Specs come.
Hiramabiff Feb 16th 2009 3:13PM
Our guild only uses DKP for 25 player raids and we don't require members to raid.
For BC we had a DKP system where people would bid on items, which was slow and allowed for guild drama (i.e. people bidding other people up).
We've implemented a new approach (for our guild) on DKP for Wrath.
The system, overall, allows for fast allocation of loot and zero drama both of which are key.
Taking some highlights from our Wiki on it are a series of bullets below.
*There is a loot priority - Main/Main Spec, Main Off Spec, etc...
*Raid Attendance Priority (60% attendance over the last 30 days) - this keeps people for showing up once and grabbing something that someone's been trying to get for weeks.
*There are points awarded for on time, boss kills, finish.
(Note: People that get sat but are 'approved' raiders get on-time DKP and Raid Attendance Credit)
*All items (based on type) have a static value.
*Off Spec is 1/2 price.
*Everything not taken by DKP is Disenchanted and the mats are added to the guild bank.
*All raiders must have a declared spec, changing on request and approval of the raid leaders and their class lead.
*People can go negative.
*Each Tier has it's own loot pool. For Tier 8 content (when it is available) a different point pool will be established. This keeps people from saving dkp for the next raid instance (Spend it, you can't take it with you)
If people want an item they just type, " In" or " In-Off Spec"
Based on Priority, Attendance and DKP balance, the person is awarded the item.
There is always a chance for *anyone* in the raid to get an item before it's DE'd.
In the end, DKP just determines who gets the item first and who second, third etc...
Granted there are raiders with more DKP than others, but honestly, most of the raiders with high balances have everything they need from the available content anyway and aren't taking gear.
Naix Feb 16th 2009 2:51PM
If you need it roll on it. If you don't roll on the shards at the end.
Kal Feb 16th 2009 2:54PM
The problem with this approach is that it ignores loot tables. If you're forced to go holy paladin on a fight that drops literally no holy plate, how do you get upgrades for your secondary spec? How does that help the raid?
Max Feb 16th 2009 3:08PM
I hate how everyone's covering this like it'll completely change the world of loot and raiding.
EVERYTHING STILL THE SAME.
The only difference is that 'respeccing' is now free, instead of 50g. Everyone will still have their main spec. Loot will go to the main spec. End of story. Gtfo.
Rexton Feb 16th 2009 3:10PM
"I'm a kitty cat!"
If I ever roll a druid, I will have that as a speech macro and use it every time I go into cat form.
Malkia Feb 16th 2009 3:30PM
Personally I will as a druid only want my T7.5 for resto. Yes, I like to blow stuff up in moonkin form(is there a different set or is it just caster and melee..I haven't looked), but my primary and preferred role in raids is healer. Moonkin is a favorite for solo questing and to that extent absolutely fine in the resto gear. I won't want a tanking set because the last time I touched bear form was in old kingdom trying to keep me alive through the invincible stage...
(Interesting thing about druids, they seem to be divided into tank/melee dps fans and caster/healer fans. Anyone into tanking/healing on their druid??)
My guild hasn't had a loot issue the entire time I've been in it. We're more about having fun and challenging ourselves.
kurnie Feb 16th 2009 3:38PM
we have a simple method.
we roll on loot for whatever job you are doing for the raid, that is your main spec for that run.
we also have another rule in place.
only 1 loot per boss
the only time you would get more is if no one wants a item and the player can use it for a off spec.
this has worked well for us.
Tyler Feb 16th 2009 4:03PM
This is not so easy. You can't make people roll on what they are currently spec'd to. This is how I will be enforcing this in my guild
Everyone declare their main/alt spec at the beginning of the raid. This is something you'll really only have to do once.
Your main spec should be the most important to you anyway because it will be what you do 90% of the time.
Now if armor loot drops you will have first priority if:
1) It is your highest armor type
2) You will be rolling on your declared main spec
Second priority is:
1) You will be rolling on your declared main spec
Third priority:
1) Its your highest armor type
2) You are rolling on your declared alt spec
Fourth Priority:
1) You are rolling on your declared alt spec
Doing it this way pleases the most people.
Obitual Feb 16th 2009 4:11PM
In our guild, you have to declare a main spec. My main spec is taniking (as a DK), and dps is my offspec role. Everyone knows this, and if we pug anything, it is declared at the beginning that dps is my offspec.
Our guild members declare their main spec. If they are dpsing for a single fight, or for a single raid because they were needed for that particular role, they generally roll along with what their main/preferred spec is. Anything else is considered offspec.
Thruin Feb 16th 2009 4:18PM
I run the loot for the guild and use two rules.
1) It's your dkp, spend it on what you want.
2) If anyone complains they get a macro'd message from me saying, "There are plenty of guilds which love to indulge in loot drama. Perhaps you'd be happier in one of them."
Bregor Feb 16th 2009 4:20PM
People (and guilds) are making it much harder on themselves than they need to.
1. For the person who mentioned the Shroud system earlier: +internets. SLS is an extremely effective method of loot distribution. It works. :)
2. When dual-speccing goes in, the concept of 'main spec' and 'off-spec' will be redefined. 'Main spec' will become 'main specs'. I fully intend (as a Warrior) on having two specs with completely different gear choices, and raid roles. Which spec will I be gearing for? Yes. I am a more valuable asset to the raid having gear for both of my specs as opposed to focusing on just one.
Cyno Feb 16th 2009 4:30PM
I dont see how this would change things much, you already have hybrid classes taking gear for their off set if nobody wants for main. The only real difference is those people wont be paying to respec durring the week.
My guild uses a DKP system, bids for main spec (what you came as), 2dkp per ilvl, if no one wants, it goes to offspec (prot pallys bidding on healing gear, trees bidding on feral pieces if none of us rogues wanted, etc) for 1dkp/ilvl, nobody wants, DEd and thrown in the guild bank for purchase with gold or DKP.
W01ph Feb 16th 2009 4:38PM
DKP has too many issues, point hoarding being the one most relevant to this post. My guild uses epgp, and have already been using the, currently simpler version, ABC spec method mentioned. With dual-specs, it will be pretty much exactly as posted. Main-alt, main-spec should ALWAYS have priority, followed by secondary alts and specs... It also helps that our guild has mature players that often do pass on loot for someone that will get a greater benefit from a piece. As the GM and MT, I have even passed on pieces for that reason, ie t7.10 shoulders, I have trollwoven spaulders, the gains from upgrading to the t7 is marginal, however the resto druid gained quite a bit from them..
All in all, no matter what system you use, it works best with good team players.
nuglops Feb 16th 2009 5:35PM
Once dual-specs hit, our guild has determined that people will build DKP per spec. Meaning, if you come in as Prot, switch to Holy for one fight, and then go Ret for the rest of them each of your specs will build DKP appropriate to how many bosses/trash pulls they did.
You want to roll on Tank gear, how much DKP does your Tank spec have?