Officers' Quarters: Dual spec, double loot?

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Ever since Ghostcrawler's Q&A session last week, it seems like everyone wants to talk about dual specs, so I might as well give in. A few readers have written me to ask how I will handle loot distribution in this crazy double-speccing future. Does having two easily switchable specs entitle a player to double the loot? One reader details his struggle to formulate a fair and effective system:
Dear Scott,
As I'm sure you're aware by now, Blizzard recently stated that dual specs are definitely in the foreseeable future. This brings a huge dilemma on raid loot distribution. How do I distribute loot when everyone can use it now?
The issue was brought up on our guild's forum recently, and I had not even thought about the possible ramifications til now. Is there any good solution? Let me give a little run down of my thoughts so far.
[. . .]One officer suggested that we up the amount of DKP people can earn on a boss and let everyone bid on the item if they could use it in their dual specs. My thoughts were that this would highly inflate the DKP of the "pure" classes seeing as they only need one set of gear so would be bidding on only half as many times as "hybrid" classes. And that would not be fair to those who play hybrid classes but for the sole purpose of DPS. Also, it would open up the floodgates on tier tokens. If everyone had the right to roll on whatever they could use, they'd be bidding on more than one tier token, possibly alienating the newcomers who could afford said token but just didn't have enough DKP to outroll the weekly raider who already has that tier item for another spec essentially making loot distribution less even across the board.
I also feel that this would encourage too much role switching. [. . .] I feel like people are going to take this as basically a flavor-of-the-week situation. Mr. Druid thinks, "Hey, I want to tank today!", then next raid he thinks "Let's try Moonkin form!", and then the next "I'm a kitty cat! RAWR!" This would be an extreme hassle to schedule against, and the druid would be splitting his gear to the point that he'd have a few good items here and there but no solid raid spec.
A second officer suggested that we stay the same on our loot distribution, making everyone declare a Main and an Alt spec. Initially, I thought this was the best route to go. But the longer I sit on it, the more I have doubts about this too.
Say we have a raid group made out and need one melee dps. We have a spare tank floating around that day and tell him he can come as DPS. During the raid, it makes the fights easier if said warrior switches to his tank spec for fights like Gluth but switches back to DPS for others like Thaddius. We down the boss and a tank item and a DPS item drops. Since he declared Tank as his main, does he have to forgo the DPS item even though it could be a huge upgrade to him?
I may be overthinking this problem, but it's been chewing at me since I've read the news. How do you think your guild will handle it?
Thanks,
Perplexed Paladin
I've been overthinking it myself lately. My officers and I have been grappling with this issue for a few days now, bouncing posts back and forth in our private forum. I'm not going to claim to have definitive answers in this column, so look elsewhere if you want to read an authoritative solution. I'm just going to bounce ideas around, and I invite all of our readers out there to post their ideas below. With a little bit of community thought-sharing, and some experience under our belts once these situations start cropping up, we'll get it all sorted out eventually.
Perplexed, I almost wish my guild were using DKP like you are. We dropped it for this expansion and it's going to make life more difficult for us when this dual spec feature becomes a reality. I'll get into that conundrum later. For now, let's look at how DKP will be affected.
The beauty of DKP is that you have to make sure you really want an item before you bid on it. You have a finite resource that must be spent wisely. Players will be reluctant to bid recklessly for offspec drops. This facet of the system, in and of itself, will police most of your worries, Perplexed.
Assuming you're using a zero-sum system, newer players with fewer points will eventually get their chances, even if some old-timers get an offspec drop or two first. It's just the nature of the beast.
The raiders who jump from spec to spec are going find that they are far less effective than raiders who have stuck with one spec. If they want to spend their points on three or four different specs, that's their prerogative. You can't tell someone how to spend their points. But they shouldn't be surprised when they are asked to sit out for someone who's better geared at their role. Also, most players do eventually find a spec that they want to play most of the time, even if it takes a couple of weeks of experimentation to figure it out. So I wouldn't consider this a major concern.
As far as your tank/DPS example goes, the easy answer is to let the player bid on the items she wants. She'll be spreading herself thin if she goes for two specs at once. The smart bet for hybrids will be to gear up one spec and then a second spec once the first spec is complete. But again, it's going to be up to her. They're her points.
If you start telling people what they can and can't bid on, you're making extra work for yourself and opening yourself up for drama. So one school of thought is to let the DKP do its work and let the chips fall where they may. In essence, you'd be ignoring the dual spec option and just allowing people to gear up as they've always done. If you want to discount offspec items, as many guilds do, that can only help the inflation problem.
Your point about inflation for pure DPS classes is a good one. It's true that, if all drops cost roughly the same, a high-attendance mage or hunter is going to have an excess of points compared to a hybrid who's putting together two, three, or even four sets.
You could do what Blizzard is doing with badges: use different points for different tiers of content. Naxx/OS/Malygos -- your Tier 7 raids -- would use one set of points, while Ulduar and any other Tier 8 raids would use another. That way, everyone sets foot into Tier 8 on an even playing field.
The downside to this is that it will require more effort from the officers to track multiple point sets. Not to mention that it would discourage people from attending the Tier 7 farming runs if they know they'll never be able to spend the points. You may lose some of your pure classes on those nights, but if you have enough hybrids and newer players to keep farming the old zones, separate point systems could be one solution for you.
Another option would be to make drops that are purely for tanking and healing (such as they are these days) cost a certain fraction of the points of a DPS item. That would encourage players to build up their tanking and healing sets first, which is desirable for making sure you have enough of each to keep raiding. It would also mean less inflation with regards to your DPS. Hybrids with multiple sets would still find themselves behind the pure DPS classes, particularly if your hybrids are gearing up DPS sets, too. But the effect in general would be less drastic.
My guild has a very different problem, since we've abandoned our DKP system in favor of rolling on everything. When you've got two specs, you've got a legitimate reason to roll on two sets of gear, whereas the pure classes will only ever roll on one. That wouldn't be a problem if hybrids weren't rolling on DPS gear, but they do and they will.
You're going to have people with a primary spec, a secondary spec, and one or two offspecs. Does that mean you have three different levels of priority, or should dual specs have equal priority for rolls? How do you track each person's spec priorities?
Once you bring alts into the equation, it makes things even more messy. For example, does a main's second spec get priority over an alt's main spec? Does a main's offspec get priority over an alt's second spec?
One way to look at it is that secondary specs, offspecs, and alts all serve the same purpose: they give your raid flexibility for many different situations. So you could enforce a priority system whereby main specs of main characters trump all other considerations, and let every other spec or alt duke it out for what's left.
As a raid leader, however, you may want to encourage people to bring their mains -- and to have flexible mains -- so that (a) you minimize downtime for swapping roles and (b) you have the most effective characters in the raid as much as possible for faster, more efficient clears. In this system, you'd let mains roll on whatever they wanted and only give loot to alts when all the mains were passing. That would greatly discourage alting on all but the most farmed-out content.
However, that means you may be sharding a lot of items that alts would have gotten if people weren't so reluctant to bring them. Someday you may need one of those alts to tank or heal or DPS, and they won't be anywhere near the gear level of your guild's mains.
You could also get into loot drama when hybrids just roll away on every drop they could ever equip, regardless of who would actually use the drops. For this system, you'd need mature, generous players who know each other's main specs. That way, intelligent decisions could be made about who's going to roll and who's going to pass. Given that my guild has such players, we're leaning toward this system right now.
A third option is far more complex but also probably the most fair. You would allow people to roll based on some combination of the following priorities: main character, primary spec; main character, secondary spec; alt character, primary spec; alt character, secondary spec; main character, offspec; alt character, offspec. Yes, that's six different priority levels. You can order them as you see fit, and you can combine them into equivalent categories. However, you still need to keep track of every player's spec priorities. And when loot drops, you'll have to establish who wants to roll on it and for which priority level.
Here's one way it could work. Suppose you combine priorities and assign each level a letter for easy reference, like so:
A-level priority: main character, primary specs
B-level priority: main character, secondary specs and alt character, primary specs
C-level priority: alt character, secondary specs, and offspecs for any character
Then you could ask everyone on our raiding roster who played any kind of hybrid class, main or alt, to post their priority level for each spec. That way you'd have it all in writing should any controversies arise. And you can also make sure that people understand what the priority levels mean before everyone finds themselves in a loot-assignment situation.
When loot does drop, whoever wants to roll should roll, but they should also identify the priority level of their roll at the same time. For example, a player would have to type B before she types /random. That way, the raid leader can quickly scan down the chat log, picking out the highest roll of the highest priority level. If there's only one A roll, then the decision is already made.
In a DKP system, pure classes come out ahead. When you're rolling for loot, pure classes are at a disadvantage. By making your A-level priority a single spec in a rolling system, you're making sure everyone is on equal footing for the gear they really need.
Ultimately it comes down to what type of guild you lead. A smaller, friendlier guild can probably get by with an informal system. A larger guild may want to stratify its players' specs into firmly defined, descending levels of priority.
I'm curious to hear what other officers plan to do once the dual spec feature goes live. Share your ideas below!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 6)
grayrest Feb 16th 2009 4:58PM
We EP/GP and have been very happy with it since it seems to avoid the regular raiders getting all the best gear all the time. Our most likely solution will be bid Main/Alt/Off. Main is full price/top priority, Alt is 50% off, Off is 90% off. We've been clearing Naxx 10 and 25 since late December and have 22 shards in the guild bank, so I think it's a pretty successful system.
Nobs Feb 16th 2009 5:21PM
This will not effect 95% of all guilds.
Guapa Feb 17th 2009 5:40AM
95% of all claims of this kind are taken out of thin air without quoting the source or background information required to properly interpretate the numbers.
Kindly let us know how you derived the number, including:
- number of guilds analysed
- servers they were located (regional and server type)
- which criteria was used to filter out inactive guilds?
- where non-raiding guild filtered out? How were these guilds identified?
- what's the definition for identifying an affected guild? Are guilds that already have a loot system that supports dual-specs counted as affected?
- Has a trend analyis been done with three or more datasets that were at least 2 weeks apart from each other on order to know the future development?
You see, it's so easy to give such claims the required reliability and trustfulness...
azza27 Feb 16th 2009 5:43PM
I believe that if you aren't a bunch of little kids with purple fever you should have the maturity to handle the loot issues. Our officers will have a say if we think someone is not thinking and allocate loot if necessary but most of the time its a case of mains and main spec first with alts and off specs second. Simple is best, long time raiders will have what they need, new people get geared in one night half the time and everyone is happy. Our only exception is that if you are raiding as an offspec you are entitled to roll on loots of that spec because without that spec change, we wouldn't get it done and no one gets loots.
Eternauta Feb 16th 2009 6:06PM
Priority system and matureness FTW.
Neirin Feb 16th 2009 6:40PM
As a druid, this is of particular interest to me, but I think my guild's current system will pretty well. Our officers try to get a feeling fairly quickly of whether or not the hybrid in question is particularly likely to respec and actually use the gear. For alts, they look at activity and how likely the player is to play their alt. Ultimately, loot is handed out primarily by how useful it will be for the guild - in other words, how likely it is that the piece of loot will actually be worn into a raid.
Antonia Feb 16th 2009 6:43PM
Man this article is long but it doesn't take reading it all to get the idea of whats going on i guess.
my guild uses dkp and has a "bid for mains" rule. we signed up to raid a certain spec and that's what we're expected to bring unless specifically asked to respec (which the guild pays for) and that doesn't happen very often. most of the time the only people who need to repec are any warriors we can get to offtank if we're low on main spec tanks or mages to frost kite zombie chow.
if its an offspec item , which is any spec we didn't sign up to raid it would be, we're held to our word that we'll bid low or just hope that it'll fall to rolls if no one else wants it and roll on it. and our guildleader is very good with noticing who's bidding what on what. but in its current state we've been farming naxx/maly and at least sarth2d for like 2 months now and every one has about every thing they want for their main spec (except for the things that just wont frick'n drop) so most every thing is falling to rolls or being melted into abyss crystals so it doesn't really matter. but if the item is bid on for an offspec it still spreads the dkp around to the rest of us, which is important to remember.
I'm not seeing this changing when we hit dual specs, the rules will still be there. i think all of us in the guild are spec'd in a way we love to play and wont be worrying about alt items till Ulduar is on farm. and if not then some warnings are sure to go out and some action would be taken.
I'm sorta surprised to hear that most guilds don't do something like this cause it seems pretty self explanatory but if there's problems with their way i think it should be tried, it works for us. if someone violates it they either don't raid for a while, get demoted or just need to find another guild that will put up with it. main specs are to be geared first, offspecs are just for fun
Hagen Feb 16th 2009 7:49PM
We use SKG in our 10 man in house stuff and are starting it w/the new 25 man team we're doing with a friendly guild. Items like the Bag of Spoils and the 22 slot bag off Sartharion are open roll items, the 22 slot is unique anyway so no one can accidentally get a 2nd one.
We have one list for T7 raid items and one for tier 7 set items. We will have a pair of T8 level lists for Ulduar. We have a different list for our 10 and 25 man runs, so for current content we need a total of 4 lists. BC and prior stuff isn't done using SKG.
We open bidding on an item for mains toons and their main spec. If we ask you to respec for something for the evening or asked you to bring an alt toon, it is considered a main for the evening. If no on wants it on that bid, we close it and open it to off-specs. Off-spec items do NOT drop you on the SK list. This is our way to make sure people actually take the loot b/c we still end up w/plenty of shards from classes we don't usually have in attendance. (shamans on our in-house runs for example)
This has been simple and effective and has seen many people work on gearing their secondary spec, knowing that dual specs will arrive soonish. I know we have at least one Paladin who has the spare bank space and we have been letting him pick up both healing and tank gear as offspec, which I don't care personally. It was just going to be an abyss crystal anyway.
Jimmy Mac Feb 16th 2009 6:57PM
Ugh. What a royal PiTA. I'm so happy right now that my guild doesn't have, and never plans to have or use, a DKP system. For non-raid groups. we rely on pretty simple need/greed, and for our Raids we've recently started a non-DKP system where anybody who wants a piece posts what they have, then the RL doles it out.
Is it perfect? No, but everyone knows what it is and there's been almost zero drama since the RL is always thinking about the guild as a whole and not just "who needs to replace that blue" or "who's been with us the most". These are both valid thoughts, and a lot rides on the RL making good judgment, but it's working so far. Have we already "beaten the game"? No, but we've gotten Sartharion down with one drake (working on two), are sending multiple groups through Naxx regularly (10 and 25 man) and have at least seen all the other content in the game right now.
And we haven't killed each other.
In the end, let's be serious here. We're all sitting at a computer pushing buttons to move around a cartoon so that we can get neat stuff to play dress-up with our in-game persona.
In case anyone wonders who our guild manages this without imploding, I think our guildmistress put it best:
"We are a bunch of friends who play WoW. That's it. It really is.
Real life is always more important than WoW. Always.
We are not here to get you into groups. We are not here to get you gear. We are not here to get you into raids. We are not here to power level your alts.
We have almost no rules for a reason. Rules are dumb."
As long as you've got a decent jerk filter in your guild application process, this philosophy works really well.
Draelan Feb 16th 2009 7:40PM
My guild hasn't been using DKP for the current raid either. Currently, we have a sort of priority system for drops:
Main character + Main Spec + Same Armor class = top priority.
Main character + main spec + wrong armor class = 2nd (such as a pally rolling for cloth)
Main character + off-spec + same armor class = 3rd
Main character + off-spec + wrong armor class = 4th (though we RARELY get this. Only really for those who pay to respec regularly)
And alts would presumably follow the same pattern after mains. (though maybe before off-spec for now. Don't have alts running at the moment.) It's not that difficult, and we don't get any serious complaints. (Just disappointment when someone gets out-rolled.) When dual-specs is introduced, I can see this becoming more complex.
Personally, I'd put dual-spec before alts. If you're running an alt, then, presumably, you already have a geared 80. It's time to let others gear up their mains. The only real exception is if you are specifically asked to bring in your alt instead of your main. (In the case of a healer or tank shortage.) If this becomes the case quite often, I can see giving that alt a higher priority, or appealing to the mains to pass on gear that's only a slight upgrade if it's a major upgrade for a frequent alt. Of course, that relies heavily on having a more courteous and mature raiding group.
My guild does fairly well handling these matters on a case-by-case basis, and the people I raid with are all pretty reasonable. You just need to speak up if you've got an opinion. After all, you can't really complain if you don't say your piece while loot distribution is under discussion, can you?
camf1991 Feb 16th 2009 7:41PM
Just tossing this out here so that I can get opinions. My guild currently doesnt raid, but we are getting really close to starting up and I am 2nd in command so I want to be on top of the ball.
Concept:
1 "Need Roll" /X bosses (for the example 1/Quarter of Nax)
1 "Need Roll" on a tier token /raid (Main spec get a slight +DKP for this)
Unlimited "Rolls" for off specs
Unlimited "Rolls" for AH
Give to DE if available
All items not claimed by this point are /roll ed for by everyone to do as they please with
main spec-what you are here as right now.
I put roll in quotes because a roll is simply an auction of the item based on DKP. So basically, this system says the main specs who need an item are given first priority and a bidding amongst them only. If no main spec wants it, off specs are then allowed to bid among themselves. If the item is BoE then it should be bid upon by AHers. This should help counter inflation as the "pure" specs will simply pick these up for an easy 1-2k of gold. This will hurt hybrids and newcomers in the purse, but raids shouldn't be primarily about making money. The item should at this point be given to the Enchanter. If no enchanter is there then go ahead and let everyone in the raid /roll on it for vendoring and things like that.
As for tier tokens, this is pretty simple. Say the shoulders have dropped for Hunter/Shaman/Warr. bidding starts. If you have not won a token this raid, and don't have this in your current spec. Then you are given + X DKP to whatever you bid. X should be a signifigant number so that a person bidding on an offspec must REALLY want to have that token in order to outbid a main spec. This part requires a little officer follow up. If a hybrid (like the warrior) bids as a DPS and shows up next week with tank shoulders a punishment should be imposed (I.E. only allowed to roll "offspec" on tokens (no +X DKP even if it is their current main spec)).
For Droods, who are boomkin, kitty, bear, and tree at various weeks, they will simply have half assed gear. This may mean that they wind up being benched for a while until they gear up more of a single spec. That really shouldnt be a problem though. Most people I know pick a spec and stay there until something comes up where they need to (such as single tank fights). So they will most likely just file into a main and off spec.
As for the OT who is DPS on some fights, we have that now as well. I have been asked to throw on some DPS gear and do my best to DPS things like loatheb. I still consider my spec Prot and roll as if Prot was my main spec. DPS may be a shiny upgrade but unless he showed up as a DPS, he is a tank.
MyrddinE Feb 16th 2009 7:52PM
I find all this loot complexity tiring.
In our guild's system, we have three priorities, in descending order:
Your armor type.
Your role on the boss that the loot fell from.
How many pieces you've already received in that raid.
We don't care if it's a main or an alt... main characters don't have more rights to loot in our guild. Nor do we care how many times you've been with us before... we don't track loot history or penalize new characters.
So onspec classes get first dibs on items that match their armor. If they pass, then onspec classes (notably healers) can roll on armor that is beneath them. And if they pass, then the roll is opened up to offspec (a role you aren't doing for that particular boss). And when comparing rolls, the character with less loot won that evening gets priority over someone who has already won something.
This method puts new players (and pugs) on equal footing with long-established characters. And personally I think that's a good thing. I don't like loot systems that exclude people... DKP and other point tracking systems seem to encourage close-knit cliques and drive away new players. If you want to 'drive away' a bad player, then don't invite them again... having a loot system that makes sure new players will only get the castoffs of the regulars is a sure way to create a class hierarchy mindset; the nobles, and the peasants who eat the trash the nobles don't want. That isn't a healthy way to create a community. Loot councils (where the aristocracy mandate who gets what loot) are even worse.
JDM Feb 17th 2009 2:15AM
Simple. You roll on the spec you completed the encounter with.
Reynald Feb 17th 2009 2:35AM
In our guild we work with master loot and no DKP system. Currently main spec gets prio on rolls.
When dual spec hits we will most likely work with a rule that you get prio for the spec you've entered the raid with. If no one wants the item people can roll for your offspec/other spec.
To me it doesn't matter much, I have no desire to roll for offspec loot. When dual spec hits I will spec two different tank specs anyway.
Isah Feb 17th 2009 7:28AM
Seriously you are going to get people refusing to come to raids unless they can come as their off-spec if their main-spec is their current spec and what happens for the respec for a certain fight? Do they roll then as that spec?
Fix a main spec. If they come as off spec that is up to them but their main spec is the core to dungeon progression.
Once Ulduar drops, then Naxx can be 'loosened' up a bit as a more casual raid and these rules may not apply, but do yourself a huge favour and fix people's main-specs going forward.
It makes organising a raid, from an officer's point of view, a lot less of a headache.
Reynald Feb 17th 2009 7:44AM
The only one currently changing for a certain fight is me, I log on my dps alt at sapphiron since a second tank isn't needed there. I don't roll for loot on him but yes if people have to change for a certain encounter they have the right to roll for what their spec/class is at that boss.
I'll have to say though, we haven't had loot problems so far. If someone wins something of use to him I can only be happy for the guy even if it means him winning it over me.
Nixxen Feb 17th 2009 2:55AM
My guild sorts this in a fairly easy manner.
You chose what your mainspec would be when you applied to the guild, and unless the guild requires you to change this spec for further progress - this is what your mainspec will be.
Any other dualspec is considered an offspec, just as much as it would if you were to respec.
If you need an item for mainspec you link your current item when the "bidding" goes. Depending on your current guildrank(initiate/member/raider/alt) the raid leader decides who get the item to best suit guild progress.
If you want the item for an offspec you can /roll on it, but only if no one want it for their mainspec.
It works, it's fair. All that is needed is a raidleader who is not corrupt, and believe it or not, but they DO exist.
StoNe Feb 17th 2009 5:06AM
What a stupid question and a ridiculous discussion.
If you must change your loot rules with dual spec you must all be on shoddy servers.
Golden raid rule: Need if it's your main spec, greed if it's your off spec.
...and if you don't know what a main specd is, wtb less pugs :/
Isah Feb 17th 2009 6:59AM
Has been discussed and agreed.
We use a DKP system.
You have one main-spec. No matter what spec you are asked to come to in a raid.
That's it. It makes Officers life simpler. People understand they may well be asked to come off-spec, but mostly this is not something that will happen.
Main-spec dkp bids overrule Off-spec bids. Simple.
Honestly, when it comes to Ulduar, people should bring the best they can. This will be their main-spec.
Naxx 10/25 will become a non-dkp side-show where what you turn up as is your main spec.
Chonhulio Feb 17th 2009 7:56AM
For us - and probably many other "hardcore" guilds - dual spec is a reality since Sunwell.
I remember raids where as a druid I healed/decursed at Kalecgos, tanked Brutallus, DPSed (or left the raid...) at Felmyst and tanked again at Twins and Muru. Paladins switching Holy->Ret->Prot->Holy->Prot->Holy wasn't unheard of either.
So the biggest change will be saved gold for respecs.
Loot is not so much of an issue once people realize that 1) the item will drop again and 2) the next-best in slot is good enough.
In case of conflict officers take a look at the players (defined) primary spec and their history in raids.
A retribution paladin has been tanking 70% of past raids and this is not expected to change? Well, give him that shield if he insists and has more DKP than the competing full-time tank.
He only tanks once in a while? Well no, stick to DPS-loot as long as a tank wants those items.
However, such conflicts are rare. In fact I can't even remember the last one. In most cases the Ret would pass or in case of a marginal upgrade for the full-time tank but a big one for the Ret, the tank would pass. (We even had a paladin alt wearing Felmyst's shield long before our regular dps warriors had it.)
Of course this can't work in every raid but it should work in many.