Officers' Quarters: Dual spec, double loot?

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Ever since Ghostcrawler's Q&A session last week, it seems like everyone wants to talk about dual specs, so I might as well give in. A few readers have written me to ask how I will handle loot distribution in this crazy double-speccing future. Does having two easily switchable specs entitle a player to double the loot? One reader details his struggle to formulate a fair and effective system:
Dear Scott,
As I'm sure you're aware by now, Blizzard recently stated that dual specs are definitely in the foreseeable future. This brings a huge dilemma on raid loot distribution. How do I distribute loot when everyone can use it now?
The issue was brought up on our guild's forum recently, and I had not even thought about the possible ramifications til now. Is there any good solution? Let me give a little run down of my thoughts so far.
[. . .]One officer suggested that we up the amount of DKP people can earn on a boss and let everyone bid on the item if they could use it in their dual specs. My thoughts were that this would highly inflate the DKP of the "pure" classes seeing as they only need one set of gear so would be bidding on only half as many times as "hybrid" classes. And that would not be fair to those who play hybrid classes but for the sole purpose of DPS. Also, it would open up the floodgates on tier tokens. If everyone had the right to roll on whatever they could use, they'd be bidding on more than one tier token, possibly alienating the newcomers who could afford said token but just didn't have enough DKP to outroll the weekly raider who already has that tier item for another spec essentially making loot distribution less even across the board.
I also feel that this would encourage too much role switching. [. . .] I feel like people are going to take this as basically a flavor-of-the-week situation. Mr. Druid thinks, "Hey, I want to tank today!", then next raid he thinks "Let's try Moonkin form!", and then the next "I'm a kitty cat! RAWR!" This would be an extreme hassle to schedule against, and the druid would be splitting his gear to the point that he'd have a few good items here and there but no solid raid spec.
A second officer suggested that we stay the same on our loot distribution, making everyone declare a Main and an Alt spec. Initially, I thought this was the best route to go. But the longer I sit on it, the more I have doubts about this too.
Say we have a raid group made out and need one melee dps. We have a spare tank floating around that day and tell him he can come as DPS. During the raid, it makes the fights easier if said warrior switches to his tank spec for fights like Gluth but switches back to DPS for others like Thaddius. We down the boss and a tank item and a DPS item drops. Since he declared Tank as his main, does he have to forgo the DPS item even though it could be a huge upgrade to him?
I may be overthinking this problem, but it's been chewing at me since I've read the news. How do you think your guild will handle it?
Thanks,
Perplexed Paladin
I've been overthinking it myself lately. My officers and I have been grappling with this issue for a few days now, bouncing posts back and forth in our private forum. I'm not going to claim to have definitive answers in this column, so look elsewhere if you want to read an authoritative solution. I'm just going to bounce ideas around, and I invite all of our readers out there to post their ideas below. With a little bit of community thought-sharing, and some experience under our belts once these situations start cropping up, we'll get it all sorted out eventually.
Perplexed, I almost wish my guild were using DKP like you are. We dropped it for this expansion and it's going to make life more difficult for us when this dual spec feature becomes a reality. I'll get into that conundrum later. For now, let's look at how DKP will be affected.
The beauty of DKP is that you have to make sure you really want an item before you bid on it. You have a finite resource that must be spent wisely. Players will be reluctant to bid recklessly for offspec drops. This facet of the system, in and of itself, will police most of your worries, Perplexed.
Assuming you're using a zero-sum system, newer players with fewer points will eventually get their chances, even if some old-timers get an offspec drop or two first. It's just the nature of the beast.
The raiders who jump from spec to spec are going find that they are far less effective than raiders who have stuck with one spec. If they want to spend their points on three or four different specs, that's their prerogative. You can't tell someone how to spend their points. But they shouldn't be surprised when they are asked to sit out for someone who's better geared at their role. Also, most players do eventually find a spec that they want to play most of the time, even if it takes a couple of weeks of experimentation to figure it out. So I wouldn't consider this a major concern.
As far as your tank/DPS example goes, the easy answer is to let the player bid on the items she wants. She'll be spreading herself thin if she goes for two specs at once. The smart bet for hybrids will be to gear up one spec and then a second spec once the first spec is complete. But again, it's going to be up to her. They're her points.
If you start telling people what they can and can't bid on, you're making extra work for yourself and opening yourself up for drama. So one school of thought is to let the DKP do its work and let the chips fall where they may. In essence, you'd be ignoring the dual spec option and just allowing people to gear up as they've always done. If you want to discount offspec items, as many guilds do, that can only help the inflation problem.
Your point about inflation for pure DPS classes is a good one. It's true that, if all drops cost roughly the same, a high-attendance mage or hunter is going to have an excess of points compared to a hybrid who's putting together two, three, or even four sets.
You could do what Blizzard is doing with badges: use different points for different tiers of content. Naxx/OS/Malygos -- your Tier 7 raids -- would use one set of points, while Ulduar and any other Tier 8 raids would use another. That way, everyone sets foot into Tier 8 on an even playing field.
The downside to this is that it will require more effort from the officers to track multiple point sets. Not to mention that it would discourage people from attending the Tier 7 farming runs if they know they'll never be able to spend the points. You may lose some of your pure classes on those nights, but if you have enough hybrids and newer players to keep farming the old zones, separate point systems could be one solution for you.
Another option would be to make drops that are purely for tanking and healing (such as they are these days) cost a certain fraction of the points of a DPS item. That would encourage players to build up their tanking and healing sets first, which is desirable for making sure you have enough of each to keep raiding. It would also mean less inflation with regards to your DPS. Hybrids with multiple sets would still find themselves behind the pure DPS classes, particularly if your hybrids are gearing up DPS sets, too. But the effect in general would be less drastic.
My guild has a very different problem, since we've abandoned our DKP system in favor of rolling on everything. When you've got two specs, you've got a legitimate reason to roll on two sets of gear, whereas the pure classes will only ever roll on one. That wouldn't be a problem if hybrids weren't rolling on DPS gear, but they do and they will.
You're going to have people with a primary spec, a secondary spec, and one or two offspecs. Does that mean you have three different levels of priority, or should dual specs have equal priority for rolls? How do you track each person's spec priorities?
Once you bring alts into the equation, it makes things even more messy. For example, does a main's second spec get priority over an alt's main spec? Does a main's offspec get priority over an alt's second spec?
One way to look at it is that secondary specs, offspecs, and alts all serve the same purpose: they give your raid flexibility for many different situations. So you could enforce a priority system whereby main specs of main characters trump all other considerations, and let every other spec or alt duke it out for what's left.
As a raid leader, however, you may want to encourage people to bring their mains -- and to have flexible mains -- so that (a) you minimize downtime for swapping roles and (b) you have the most effective characters in the raid as much as possible for faster, more efficient clears. In this system, you'd let mains roll on whatever they wanted and only give loot to alts when all the mains were passing. That would greatly discourage alting on all but the most farmed-out content.
However, that means you may be sharding a lot of items that alts would have gotten if people weren't so reluctant to bring them. Someday you may need one of those alts to tank or heal or DPS, and they won't be anywhere near the gear level of your guild's mains.
You could also get into loot drama when hybrids just roll away on every drop they could ever equip, regardless of who would actually use the drops. For this system, you'd need mature, generous players who know each other's main specs. That way, intelligent decisions could be made about who's going to roll and who's going to pass. Given that my guild has such players, we're leaning toward this system right now.
A third option is far more complex but also probably the most fair. You would allow people to roll based on some combination of the following priorities: main character, primary spec; main character, secondary spec; alt character, primary spec; alt character, secondary spec; main character, offspec; alt character, offspec. Yes, that's six different priority levels. You can order them as you see fit, and you can combine them into equivalent categories. However, you still need to keep track of every player's spec priorities. And when loot drops, you'll have to establish who wants to roll on it and for which priority level.
Here's one way it could work. Suppose you combine priorities and assign each level a letter for easy reference, like so:
A-level priority: main character, primary specs
B-level priority: main character, secondary specs and alt character, primary specs
C-level priority: alt character, secondary specs, and offspecs for any character
Then you could ask everyone on our raiding roster who played any kind of hybrid class, main or alt, to post their priority level for each spec. That way you'd have it all in writing should any controversies arise. And you can also make sure that people understand what the priority levels mean before everyone finds themselves in a loot-assignment situation.
When loot does drop, whoever wants to roll should roll, but they should also identify the priority level of their roll at the same time. For example, a player would have to type B before she types /random. That way, the raid leader can quickly scan down the chat log, picking out the highest roll of the highest priority level. If there's only one A roll, then the decision is already made.
In a DKP system, pure classes come out ahead. When you're rolling for loot, pure classes are at a disadvantage. By making your A-level priority a single spec in a rolling system, you're making sure everyone is on equal footing for the gear they really need.
Ultimately it comes down to what type of guild you lead. A smaller, friendlier guild can probably get by with an informal system. A larger guild may want to stratify its players' specs into firmly defined, descending levels of priority.
I'm curious to hear what other officers plan to do once the dual spec feature goes live. Share your ideas below!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 6 of 6)
Bel Feb 17th 2009 2:31PM
The guild I'm in almost has enough people to start running 10mans, but not everyone is geared well enough. We tend to use a need before greed system when more than one person wants a drop.
Main spec > off spec first of all, main spec always gets first priority.
Then, there's either a random roll done, or in cases where it's a massive upgrade for one person and a mediocre upgrade for the other, it goes to the person who needs to more.
That being said, there's a fine line between gearing those who need it, and denying someone of gear (Greed going to a Hunter over a combat fists Rogue for example) . It does however work for us, with most of our better geared members wanting to be ready to run Naxx as a guild rather than get a small upgrade. No clue how it will work in bigger guilds though.
IF I were an officer in a bigger guild, I think a similar priority system would work. Main spec of main characters > secondary spec/Alts > Alts secondary specs, with any off specs coming in last. Combined with a DKP system where secondary specs require a higher bid than main specs, insuring any Healers/Tanks will hold off on collecting gear for their secondary until they have all their upgrades, especially if it's made clear that spreading their gear too think, or gearing their DPS secondary spec will decrease their chances of being invited to raids.
At the same time, it will be great seeing hybrids who have specced for DPS being able to OH/OT when need be, lessens the chance of needing to PuG someone because you don't have enough Healers/Tanks online to run something.
terra Feb 17th 2009 1:06PM
My guild already has a system in place, as several people already perform multiple roles depending on the instance, or are expected to be able to respec in case we are short a healer/tank. We use a DKP system with minimums. Off-spec minimum bid for an item is generally 1/2 the normal (main spec) min, and off-spec max bid is normal min - 1. It works fine so far.
Hjalle Feb 18th 2009 11:30AM
This is really a casual guild problem as I see it.
Any hardcore guild who will have a problem with this has serious issues.
If you applied as a tank you are a tank and dpsgear is offspeck, if you you're trying to get a dualspeck dpsgear thats really beside the point.
In Postal we use dkp and we start with a minbid of 10 or 15 depending on itemlevel, those who are missing attendence or are bidding for offspeck use a prefix in their bid:
!bid for normal bid
!low for low attendance
!off for offspec
!bid >!low>!off
I see no reasen why to change this if we don't want anachy in our raidforce.
In my opinion you're just creating a problem by worrying to much about dualspeck.
Not knowing what speck your players are when they join the raid will cause a huge stressfactor for every single person in the guild, especially the raidleader.
However, dualspeck will be awsome for those healers/tanks who wants to blow off some steam in pvp on weekends :)
The way I see it.
Hjalle
www.postalguild.com
Malpeg Feb 21st 2009 12:48PM
We are a casual guild that raids 10 man content. We use EPGP to determine priority. Points are assigned on an account basis. Loot is distributed main spec; if no one wants in main spec then it's offered off spec. Main spec is what you are in that raid. Off spec gear cost 10% of what it would on spec.
Cygne Mar 9th 2009 11:41AM
Nothing is going to change when dual spec comes out for us. We always base main rolls on whatever you initially came as to the raid. If nobody wants an item piece then its open for offset rolls, offset now being the dual-spec. Keeps things clean and simple.
Bee Mar 18th 2009 1:25PM
Hey :)
Our guild uses DKP and I am glad we do - our members all have 'war-stories' to tell of new people coming into a raid and winning loot over the 'veterans' in TBC.
Our loot system is a slight variation on the above to make looting quicker. We allow main and offspecs to bid (silent bidding) on the item at the same time, but if it is an offspec bid, the player writes 'offspec' in raid chat.
This allows us to halve the time it takes to distribute loot and the system will still work after dual specs.
Mag Apr 7th 2009 12:30PM
Frankly, i do not see how dual spec can cause problems in whatever loot systems guild's are using. Each class has 3 talent trees, and had them from the beginning of the game. Players often switch between different specs for various reasons, and an average person has better or worse gear for their off spec.
Whether you are about to apply to a raiding guild, or are in one already, you have a raid spot chosen for you according to your main talent spec. This is the one you focus upon primarily, one you aim at gearing up the most. Your off spec gear is either excess drops after your guild has done an instance for a few weeks and all the main specs lost interest in that particular item, or crafted, heroic, unofficial raids stuff.
Why would that change now?
To me, the only reason behind this changes is to facilitate casual raiding, bring the costs of changing talents down and make the life of players easier in the wilds of Azeroth while they quest, pvp, try to group up for instances or make gold.
In a serious raiding guild, everyone will still have their assigned role, bidding on items for their main/off spec as usual.
Sanjassi Apr 8th 2009 2:59PM
Our guild uses a gentleman-system. We prioritise mains>alts>offspec and those who want an item talk amongst themselves about who gets an item. Usually it goes to the person who gets a bigger upgrade from it. The advantage of this system is that no upgrade is ever lost because people save their points for "best-in-slot" items. The downside is that people are too polite to grab items and keep passing for others.
This system works because we demand maturity and a minimum level of skill with the english language. It doesnt have to be perfect as long as you can make yourself understood.
We once refused an elemental shaman-applicant just because he kept leetspeaking. I was so happy when this happened.
Druid! Apr 14th 2009 3:39PM
heh....just push the roll to /roll 1000
Enjoy your new looting system. The end.
Demouse Apr 21st 2009 9:10PM
the only 100% fair way to do loot is to do loot council but your officers must be all knowing, completely unbiased, extremely wise and know how each piece affects each class by how much.
they must also have a psychology degree and keep perfect track of what upgrades everyone in the raid has ever gotten within the last year
they must also know how much badges they have
and what the chances of them ever leaving the guild are. they must also be able to make their decision within 10 seconds of asking who wants the item
if u cant do that ur system will not be 100% fair. up to me if i was in a DKP guild id suggest that u select ur main spec and run that off DKP, if no one wants the spend DKP on it you can /roll for offspec or have a second "offspec" DKP list
Shin1ng May 8th 2009 7:21AM
I think that all systems depend on how the officers/raidleaders present it and execute it.
We use a current specc /roll. That means that on Gluth (wich is the most obvious situation) I usually take the adds with my tankadin, meaning one of our dpsers go tank with the OT.
Now we are 3 ppl that can roll on tankinggear for that fight. Next fight (Thaddius) were back on 2 tanks and the extra tank is back on dps duty meaning he rolls on dps gear.
We made this very clear right away when dual-specc was released and due to that there have been no misunderstandings. If your an officer/GM/raidleader you wont have any problem at all selling this if your guild trusts you.