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2-16-2009 @ 1:08PM
This makes me so happy we do not use the DKP system. Granted we are a casual raiding guild. We use a simple SKG system and have determined that if you decide you want an item (for either of your specs) you'll go down on the list. If no one wants it, it gets sharded. Easy. Get it, go down on list. No one wants it, shard it. After spending a couple years with SKG through BC raiding and now into Northrend I must say it is probably one of the fairest, easily managed and straightforward, no-drama methods to go. I cannot speak for large raiding guilds however and whether SKG would work for them, so I won't try.
2-16-2009 @ 2:33PM
TBH I don't see how dual specs is going to cause loot issues. Maybe in a really shitty guild with spineless officers...
2-17-2009 @ 1:10PM
My guild is a casual guild, and we've cleared all 10 man content. Our rules are simple, first rolls go for main specs, 2nd rolls for off spec, if no one wants it we shard it; no limits on upgrades. But again, we're very casual and friendly - we have had a druid and a lock both get a full T7 set in their first weekend at 80 because of great luck with /roll.
2-16-2009 @ 3:27PM
I'm on a casual guild, and we pretty much have this loot system. All we do is roll for items with a master looter.. if you want the item, you roll. Simply as that. But you roll *only* if the item is for your main spec. If there are no main specs that needs it, then it goes for offspecs. If NOBODY needs it, it gets sharded. And the shards goes to the guild bank unless we have pugs, in wich case the shard gets rolled.The spec you're raiding with in that moment IS your main spec. So, if you're a DK dpsing at that moment, you'll have priority for dps gear, even if you tank most of the time. (we agree on this before a run with pugs, our guildies already know it)I really don't see how dual specs can have any impact on this. (at least for my guild).Honestly, I think sometimes full raiding guilds get too innecesarily complicated.
2-16-2009 @ 4:12PM
The group I run with in Naxx doesn't use any kind of lasting point system between runs. When loot drops,1. /Roll if you want it for main spec.2. Out of the people who rolled, check if any of them have won loot before.3. Whoever has not gotten any loot yet (or has gotten the least amount of loot) are rolling against each other, highest roll of those people wins. Loot master keeps track of who has won what.4. If nobody wants it for main spec, we /roll a second time for offspec.5. Anyone is free to roll on it at this point (as long as it IS for an offspec), and these numbers don't count against the number of epics you've won for your main spec (but if you've won something for offspec and someone else hasn't, they get priority on the roll)6. If nobody wants it for any reason at all, it gets sharded.We keep Tier token drops on a separate roll, so getting non-tier epics won't count against your chances to win a tier drop, and it tends to even out the epics so that at least you get something every week.
2-16-2009 @ 5:16PM
It may be a little off topic but... Tythian you have to realize that you could not play the game without hybids. Being a MT or a healer is considered a much more stressful position and certainly in my experience a more involving role. People do it because of the challenge but the burnout rate of these players is exponetially higher than "Pure DPS" players. To add to this Tanks and Healers get pegion-holed into that role when many would prefer to break once in a while. While this requires reorganization and luck. DPS can usually be replaced on the fly with no real change in raid setup, especially in 25 man. (DPS can still do reasonable DPS without optimum buffs but doing Malygos with no aoe healing, or a poorly geared tank on 2d/3d Sarth spells disaster.) The other side of this is pure dps classes are less likely to roll "off-spec" while hybrids generally need to; if for nothing else than to have a break from tanking/healing without being left out of guild raids. This is why many guilds seek to reward Hybrids by slanting the DKP system in thier favor. Usually this is done through half DKP for off-spec rolls or decreasing Tanking/Healing item values in the DKP system. With mainspecs still getting priority DPS are not left behind but Hybrids have a chance to enjoy the game while helping fill the basic requirements of thier raid. A good tank or healer is worth 10 dps. (In my experience people who have tanked/healed, even on other charaters, are usually stonger players on the DPS side than the "pure DPS classes" whos players have not.)Based on your post though, until you have been a MT/raidleader/MH in 25/40 man content you will never understand why having the ability to break and come in as an off-spec is so important to the health of your raid, and sustainability of your progression.
2-16-2009 @ 6:24PM
The only thing I keep thinking is that, in point of fact, dual specs add nothing to the game. Really. All they do is make switching specs easier, which is an ability everyone has. Just go with previous loot rules for 'main' and 'off' specs. This same inflation of DKP already happened in BC, especially with Druids, but no one exploded. Bear tanks rocked, and resto Druids ate Arena for breakfast (nom nom). Yes, it definitely is harder to gear multiple specs, but unification of some stats like spellpower, hit and crit make this easier for a lot of classes. As for raids... if nothing else I think this will make them even easier. What if everyone in your group has a decently-geared offspec? Not only can you cherry-pick classes, but now you can cherry-pick specs, and even change them from boss to boss much more easily. Just take two deep breaths... it'll be okay. Gear your main before your offspec and have fun. :^)
2-16-2009 @ 7:02PM
I agree. In our guild, those that have viable offspecs are constantly ASKED to respec to make up any gaps or maximise the situation. It would be complete nonesense for them to be asked to play a roll and then get that roll side lined along with someone's alt or other less useful multi-spec classes. (druids being the best example)DKP is fair IMO. The rest of these arguments are around "officers" attempting to micromanage how other people play the game.You raided and you spent the time, you get points. You deserve those points more than some other clown who has either spent all his or not raided as much as you. How you spend them is up to you. All is well.In the "master loot roll" methods, some new guy on his main can out roll a sweet piece of gear on some guy who has been waiting about for this particular piece for ages. This guy might have passed for 3-4 weeks on other crap because he is already geared up and thus been a core member of every raid. (and this is actually a RL example in my current guild) We institute a 2 week "roll like an alt" rule for new 80's, but after the 2 weeks they only have to average twice a week to roll on anything. Not even slightly fair.The only suggestion I would make to DKP is one that services the guild's need to equip people. I would give a blue->purple upgrade a bonus amount of "free DKP". (Call it a subsidy)The same for main vs alt or main/needed vs other spec. Thus you can actually weight in the need for the guild to max out their mains and alts, but allow grizzled vets to pick up gear they want if they do the hard yards.
2-16-2009 @ 7:19PM
I think there is an easy solution to this. I figure whatever spec the hybrid is when the loot drops is his mainspec. This is the spec that he or she used to benefit the raid on that boss.I understand that hybrids make sacrifices to respec to other specs when the situation calls, but if the hybrid is in a guild, there should be no problems figuring out his main spec. Hybrids should not feel entitled to every piece of gear that drops that he can -use-.
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