Ghostcrawler: "We still are not convinced that Warrior tanks are operating at some huge deficit"

Warriors still lack the paladin's AoE threat, while paladins have equal single target threat (indeed, paladins at this point gear almost identically to warrors, have a shield slam equivalent and even use the same tanking itemized weapons) and survivability, while paladins have a tanking buff in Blessing of Sanctuary that no min-maxing raid leader will want to do without. Warriors lack the high health of a bear tank or the speed of threat generation, are roughly equivalent in AoE tanking capacity, and a prot warrior simply still cannot match the bear's ability to switch to cat for DPS purposes if the druid is not needed for tanking. Warriors are also behind DK's in AoE threat (due to the DK's excellent use of diseases + Death and Decay), roughly equivalent in survivability thanks to a DK's wide assortment of cooldowns depending on spec (My blood tank uses Icebound Fortitude, Mark of Blood, Vampiric Blood, and Rune Tap quite frequently while tanking) and again a DK is superior to a warrior in her or his ability to step into a DPS role when not needed as a tank.
So what, you might rightly ask? Warriors are generally number two in everything, making them the best all purpose generalist tanks in the game. They can do AoE tanking, single target threat, have great survivability, DPS is greatly improved from BC, why does it matter if some other tanking class is slightly better in one or two aspects of the tanking game?
The reason it matters, and the reason that GC is at once right and wrong about warrior tanks (ie, yes, they are not operating at a huge deficit, but no, that doesn't mean they're not operating at a deficit that is significant even if it isn't large) is because min-maxing raid leader decisions trickle down. We all remember BC five mans, yes? When groups picked paladins to tank over druids and warriors because they all 'knew' paladins were the best tanks for those instance. Paladin AoE tanking in some heroics was at the expense of healer mana and sanity in many cases, as healing the tank became an exercise in massive frustration and mana bombing that has to some degree continued to dominate the healing game, to the point where even the developers want to back away from casting the biggest heals you can on every GCD.
At present, tanking in heroics is basically all tanks tanking in this fashion. Tanking in raids is either this form of tanking or using the three or four tanks you have to pick up trash. There's very little CC and everything comes down to tanks generating aggro fast while the raid burns down targets. And in these circumstances, a warrior is always your second best choice. Now, if a warrior is what you have, then you'll most likely make use of said warrior. But if you are blessed with a surfeit of tanks in all the classes possible, you would only choose a warrior tank over one of the other classes if she or he significantly outgeared them or was significantly more skilled.
There are going to be situations where one or the other classes are going to feel easier as tanks, just because the abilities and mechanics are still different despite all of our homogenization (and we really don't want to homogenize any more).
I agree with this statement, and don't want to see any more homogenization. In an ideal world, we might have seen less of it, actually. Other tanks would not have been given the warriors tools at the strength the warrior possesses them when the warrior was not to be given those classes options at the same strength, for example.
However, right now all situations are those where one of the other classes feels easier as a tank. From a raid leader's perspective there is no fight in the game that is so difficult on healers that you would ask them "Do you need us to put a warrior in there?" In fact, in the hardest fight in the game right now, the best choice isn't a warrior or even any other class, it's another class' pet. Imagine this from the perspective of any tank who went out and worked hard to be geared enough to tank this fight being told that no, you're not good enough, we're going to use Burninsoul's big blue buddy. Furthermore, even if a warrior tank's bag of tricks makes life easier on healers, often a raid will still choose a class with faster threat generation over them on the assumption that faster threat = quicker DPS = shorter fight = easier on healers in the end.
Ghostcrawler is absolutely correct that warrior tanks are not inferior by any large degree right now. He's wrong if he thinks that means they aren't getting passed over. Warriors don't need to be the best at everything, but they do need to be the best at something.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Forums






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 9)
segsp Feb 17th 2009 2:04PM
I play a warrior tank. I think the only improvements Warriors need is a bit more threat generation, since its not scaling as well as DPS is. I also think we need more rage generation. I'm still rage starved in heroics. -.-
ddaz Feb 17th 2009 2:10PM
I agree with the need for threat and rage generation. It would make things a little easier.
Kaphik Feb 17th 2009 2:26PM
Rage generation was on the list of things they were looking at for warriors in 3.1.
jerzz80 Feb 17th 2009 2:29PM
every time i have a problem with a tank, its a warrior and threat. IDK exactly what it is thats gimping them, but warriors are constantly losing aggro, particularly in AOE situations.
Thats just my experience.
Taladan Feb 17th 2009 2:36PM
Hey Blizz could make Paladin's Blessing of Sanctuary a base skill, so we could "Bless" our tank while healing or DPSing.
Stephen Feb 17th 2009 3:05PM
If it wasn’t for 1 thing I think more people would see the problem, even ghost. Atm guild warrior tanks “tend” to be the most experienced, plus guilds still have the old MTs about who do a good job and who people are used to. But, as more of the old guard leave the game (or just reroll) and as the other class’s get more experience then, due to the other class’s inherent advantages, I think a warrior MT or even OT will start to become a very rare thing.
CactusHam Feb 17th 2009 3:13PM
I even think rage generation is only a problem to an extent in five mans -- particularly if you outgear them. I don't really run five man's anymore, but when I was gearing up I almost never had a problem -- since AoE tanking is the common practice in this age of no CC you've always got 3 guys hitting you for some rage.
However, I definitely would like to see them implement rage generation on dodges and parries -- rage starvation is almost a penalty for being OVERGEARED.
I also don't understand people who have problems AoE tanking with a warrior, or believe it's really that much more difficult. When I was running five man's I had absolutely no problem AoE tanking every trash pull in every dungeon. As many other posters have pointed out, the much improved Wrath version of thunderclap more than gets the job done, especially with the addition of shockwave to the AoE arsenal, and glyph of devastate.
Anyone who is complaining of pulling off an warrior AoE tanking is suffering from one of two situations: The warrior either doesn't properly know how to AoE tank... or you, the DPS, doesn't know how to correctly DPS (but it can't POSSIBLY be that answer, now can it...). Warrior's have more than enough tools to AoE tank effectively if they know how to play.
Maybe warrior DPS is a little low compared to the other tanks. We're a tank. My DPS has always been low, I can live with it. I don't suffer from overwhelming threat problems, but considering the article and other posters experience, my experience as a protection warrior seems to be different.
Tommy Feb 17th 2009 3:18PM
@jerzz80
"...but warriors are constantly losing aggro, particularly in AOE situations."
IMO, DPS isn't doing their job correctly. If you're rolling with a warrior, don't AoE. Use CC and single-target kill. I like to push my tanks on threat a little bit but if I'm threat-capping, I scale it back a bit. Sure, the run might take a little longer but at least I'm not pulling aggro from the tank constantly.
James Feb 17th 2009 3:55PM
There's a big difference between theory and application. Maybe theoretically warriors are at some min-max disadvantage. But as a healer, I have done every fight in the game. And I can tell you unquivocally, the best tanks are Paladins and Warriors; with Paladins on top only because of their buffs.
Actually, the worst tanks right now are Feral Druids and DKs. DKs just seem to be universally horrible cause no one has figured out that class just yet, plus their abilities are in constant flux patch to patch. Feral Druids are having issues with AOE tanking, which as we all know, is Wrath-tanking in a nutshell. Warriors are by far some of the most experienced tanks, and whatever they may be lacking, they make due with that.
The situation where warriors are being sit out for other tanks simply does not exist. In my experience, warrior tanks are told to sit out only because there are so many tanks these days in raids. But even in that situation, we will almost always ask feral druids to go into cat form and DKs to switch to dps mode, before we ever ask a warrior or pally to respec. This might change with on-demand respecs, but like I said before, warriors tend to be the most experienced tanks. So it seems unlikely we'll let them sit out, in favor of relative newbies (ie. DKs).
infection Feb 17th 2009 4:32PM
I disagree with your threat comments.
I never have lost aggro even in malygos as a pally. We picked up a pro warrior tank the other day and he can surpass me in many fights with aggro.
We both have really good rotations on our abilities.
Maybe you need to read up on that. (even though I know you are going to come back with the fact you are the number 1 person in the game at warrior tanking, even though you are probably a pugger in greens in reality.)
Fandon Feb 17th 2009 4:59PM
haha actually I probably do need new rotations and I'm not a pugger in greens, http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmane&n=Fandon , doesnt mean I'm the best war out there or even good :P I'm just saying in my experience I havnt generated the threat other tanks do.
Fandon Feb 17th 2009 5:00PM
oh my b I saw james and thought it was me
Morcego Feb 17th 2009 5:24PM
As a druid tank that is always rage starved at heroics, here is some advice: take off your pants.
Really. Take that piece of gear off, and try again.
muffin_of_chaos Feb 17th 2009 6:22PM
Problem with warriors is not that they can't aoe, it's that it's a lot harder for them to do effectively, and that effort goes to a weaker result.
Death Knights are, by the numbers, the least squishy tanks in the game in pretty much every fight that doesn't require over 50k hitpoints. This is stupid in my opinion...Warriors have so few gimmicks as part of their class compared to every other class that they should at least be the best at what they do.
Blizzard: design a new ability in the Prot tree or glyph that
increases survivability (maybe while Bloodrage is active, healing is increased by 20%, or increase the bonus of Vitality to 4 per rank).
Then make Damage Shield do 50% extra threat, and make a glyph that changes the stun on Shockwave into a silence and increases the damage by 10% or something.
If you want things to be less annoying for Warriors.
Saslic Feb 17th 2009 7:25PM
I play a druid tank, and have no issues with aoe tanking at all. I usually have at least 2 dps dropping big aoe's (hurricane and divine storm) as soon as I engage a group of mobs in a heroic and it all goes fine. They are so used to it that I need to be fast on the first swipe to beat them to the aoe.
It does require glyphed maul and a small amount of target changing to hold aggro while swiping, but that just stops druid tanking being boring.
epic Feb 18th 2009 7:29PM
@ fandon umm sitting at 540 def is helping you either while 540 makes you "uncrittable" DEF (to a certain point) point for point is better then any other single stat(parry, dodge, block) in boost your avoidance. i know your post was regarding threat but this just really irks me when i see 28K warriors walking around and 60% avoidance you are not doing your healers any favors( and i know naxx is easy...try it on 3D)
SaintStryfe Feb 17th 2009 2:05PM
Prot Warriors just feel they should be "the" tanks, and everyone else is situational.
I'm sorry for them.
Dawkins Feb 17th 2009 2:49PM
I think you missed the point. Matt is wanting warriors to be "the (please insert a specialty here) tanks" as every other tanking class is.
And there's no reason to feel sorry for anyone else when you make yourself look stupid.
SaintStryfe Feb 17th 2009 2:58PM
Um... what?
Frostybolts Feb 18th 2009 2:41PM
Warriors who want to be the only tanks should just follow Tigole to his next game, I'm sure he'll bring back the good ol' days when Pallies and Druids were as bad at tanking as shadow priests and enhancement shamans