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Blinded Iraq war vet raids with a little helpUlduar vehicles will scale with gear
by Mike Schramm 
Feb 18th 2009 at 10:30AM
Here's a little consolation to those of you, like Eliah, concerned about the Ulduar vehicle fights: Unlike some of the other vehicle fights in the game already, Daelo says on the forums that the vehicles in the next raid will actually scale with gear. He says someone in blues will have a much harder time in the vehicles than someone kitted out in Naxx gear.Personally, I've only done Oculus, but I do agree with Eliah that putting us in vehicles takes away a lot of the achievement we've gained by leveling and questing -- it's not fun to fail on a boss just because you're trying to deal with a whole new set of abilities you've had no control over until you jumped in the driver's seat. But the fact that the Ulduar vehicles will scale helps a little bit -- players were concerned that every time you went in there, it'd be the same fight, but with new gear that should change. And obviously Blizzard has heard the concerns about the Oculus, so you'd have to hope they wouldn't make the same mistake twice.
Elsewhere on the forums, Zarhym promises, comically, that we'll all enjoy this (and that we'll forget to post how much we enjoy it on the forums afterwards). He says that the fight is different from anything else we've done in the World of Warcraft, and that when all is said and blown up, it'll be an epic encounter. We'll see.
Need more news about Ulduar? We've got updates, previews, speculation, and everything else you need to know about the next big raid coming in patch 3.1. If the Titans are hiding it up there, we'll tell you about it here.Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
blkmasta55555 Feb 18th 2009 10:38AM
Hm. Given I was complaining about this not happening only last night, I believe the only correct phrase for this is:
AWWWWWW YEAAAH.
Manatank Feb 18th 2009 12:16PM
My problem with this kind of thing is how delicate the scaling will have to be. Is there a healing vehicle? What stats does it scale from? Straight SP, crit, and haste? What about all the talents that some classes have to make their heals more powerful? If it is something simple like SP scaling, then it favors which ever class has a higher general SP (and the amount of SP needed to get the job done varries from class to class).
The same sorts of considerations would be needed for DPS and tanks. The bottom line is that basic stats are not balanced across classes because the classes are also balanced through the tuning of spells and talents. Imagine if the "tank" vehicle's health was based on the HP of driver, but the vehicle could not block or parry. Well if druids are allowed to stay in form, then you'd want a feral driving your tank vehicle. If they aren't allowed to be in form, then their stat scaling with the vehicle will be terrible.
I predict this will be a balancing nightmare unless it is made to be so trivial that you don't need to really worry about it. If they do something like base the scaling on average iLevel, then you will see people building silly gear sets to just get 226/213 in as many slots as they can regardless of the appropriateness of the gear. My plate wearing tank would now going to be rolling on any type of armor as long as it has the highest iLevel. Another alternative will be to make the encounter so easy that the scaling wont play too much of a role. In this case it makes it trivial, and pointless to implement in the first place.
Retron Feb 18th 2009 12:29PM
@Manatank: Heh somehow I doubt they'll allow a bear to drive a vehicle, although it'd look hilarious.
Hopefully Blizz has put enough thought into how this will work that they don't fall into any of the pitfalls you mention. Keep in mind though, there's a pretty broad spectrum between the encounter being so hard that people are rolling on gear just for that boss, and so easy that the whole matter is trivial. For example, it might be that it's doable in lame gear, but it just takes longer and is more of a pain.
Demgar Feb 18th 2009 7:57PM
Doesn't have to be that complicated. Just sum up all the armour item levels and create a scale based on that for each variety of vehicle. Et viola.
Item levels are consistent across all classes, and a good indicator of overall "power" regardless of what stats you stack.
Jizzle Feb 18th 2009 1:33PM
Or, you know, they could use something as simple as average gear item level? Since all items are already balanced around this number, it would be extremely simple to use that as the balancing value and then they don't have to worry about SP vs AP vs Def Rating vs Whatever.
But that might be too obvious for some people and if thought of would give less for them to complain about.
jrizutko Feb 18th 2009 2:46PM
@ Jizzle,
I was thinking along the same lines that it would just scale based on your average item level.
Still, I am completely underwhelmed by any content design that makes my class irrelevant. In leveling and daily quests, I see some value in it, because it lets toons not specced for damage progress through content more smoothly. In raids, it feels like showing up to Sturgis on moped.
You've worked all your life to be a great fighter? Perfect, you're just the man we're looking for to round out our chess club!
Manatank Feb 18th 2009 3:42PM
Lol @ Jizzle and jrizutko:
Wow, if you'd actually ready my post I specifically mentioned the exact idea you had. The problem with iLevel balancing is that it would encourage a specific gear set just for vehicle fights like this. You'd have plate wearing tanks picking up iLevel 226 cloth just to raise their average iLevel. You'd have hybrids picking up useless relics just because of their iLevel. The point being that higher iLevel does not always mean better gear.
Now, is this really a problem? Not hugely, but it does seem silly to give people one more reason to pick up gear they would otherwise never had a reason for having.
Kaaylia Feb 18th 2009 4:49PM
I think the most intelligent way to work something like this would be to scale off of a character's top one or two stats. You're a resto druid and your spirit is highest? That's where your scaling comes from. Feral tank? Scale on stam. I agree that the iLevel idea has issues, but I highly doubt the very -first- boss of Ulduar will be so intense as to require off-set gear just for a higher iLevel.
Wisakedjak Feb 18th 2009 10:50AM
How is the vehicle gimmick any worse than any of the other ones they've implemented in this regard? Success on a good portion of the Naxxramas encounters has nothing at all to do with your gear or your ability to effectively use the abilities your class- Heigan, Thaddius, and Sapph are all good examples of this, as is Sarth and Malygos. These fights are based on learning the encounter and on coordination rather than being yet another gear check, and also stand out as some of the more interesting encounters currently in the game. So why the angst at vehicles in particular?
Kraf Feb 18th 2009 10:55AM
I agree, I much rather these encounters that require more thinking and brain power / paying attention then just pure power. Really shows people who know what they're doing and they end up being more fun than just standing still and pewpewing
Elmo Feb 18th 2009 11:44AM
The first or second boss usually is the gear check.
Kalecgos: Skill check on everyone
Brutallus: Gear check
Naj'entus: healer check
Supremus: somewhat a tank check.
the danger of starting out with vehicles is that the first boss will be too easily accesible. You should've cleared the previous tier of raiding to acces the next.
Making the vehicles scale with gear is a way to avoid that.
on the other hand a somewhat vehicle like boss I really liked though was Teron Gorefiend. it isn't a hard fight unless some member screws up on the ghosts. I'm not totally against such fights but there must be a challenge, Malygos P3 is simply too easy and not exciting at all.
MisterMoose Feb 18th 2009 11:49AM
Interesting encounters are great, but Heigan is also largely a latency check, which can totally suck.
Kassu Feb 18th 2009 2:51PM
I think that the problem lies within the fact that in vehicle fights, people have no excuse to being shit.
Maybe you could hide your awfulness behind the curtains of epix lewt, but when you strip all that away, it boils down to your brain and pressing 1234, which a lot of people can't seem to do because they can't even learn their OWN class after 80 levels of grind.
Eisengel Feb 18th 2009 4:40PM
I think Blizz is being a little overzealous with the vehicle feature and is trying to kind of shoehorn it into instances and raids. I do enjoy vehicles a lot... what I enjoy is that they allow you to do things you normally couldn't. I loved driving around a tank in Borean Tundra, I loved driving around a demolisher in Icecrown, I enjoyed the bomber quest in Icecrown (especially manning the different seats)... however I wasn't all that thrilled with Oculus. I can sit and pew pew on my character already... while doing it with a different skillset is.. well.. different, it isn't something that I fundamentally can't do.. like charging headfirst into a crowd of 50 or more Scourge and mowing them down in seconds.
Vehicles should radically alter what you are capable of, but if they're limited to just throwing around bigger numbers, you may as well just have some buff or temporary uber weapon for a fight that allows you to do extra damage.
For the love of Jeff... Feb 18th 2009 10:56AM
And again, we're panicking before we even see it in action.
Oh Noes, I have abilities unique to the fight, woe is me.
Please, drop the chicken little routine and let them innovate, it's one of the things that makes WoW awesome.
Arcaria Feb 18th 2009 11:04AM
It's not the fact that there are new controls or something other than pew pewing. It's the fact that it feels very clunky, targeting is sometimes difficult and it makes the game feel slower. Beat oculus heroic on the first try and never went back. Beat Malygos and usually try to skip it every week afterwards.
You can mock those of us who are skeptical all you want to because I'm sure you're an all around stud both in and out of the game but the truth is, the vehicle fights are very poorly implemented and not fun at all.
Michael Feb 18th 2009 4:58PM
Yes there are some things that are 'buggy' or feel 'clunky', but when a right hander twists one off with his left hand, it feels 'buggy' or 'clunky', but he still does it.
Maybe the idea is to put you out of your comfort zone. Work a little harder for the end goal, not have everything work perfectly and have it so everything is easy and comfortable.
Threeve Feb 18th 2009 10:52AM
While I don't agree with insulting people who don't like vehicle combat, and I for one was a bit dismayed to find there would be some of that in Ulduar, I do think it's nice every now and then. The WG vehicles are fun and I love the encounter in Occulus and the fact that you can do it naked.
It's an encounter that required every group member to think and contribute, and will continue to do so even once everyone has tier 9 gear or season 8 pvp gear. And yes there are some people who are probably too ignorant to ever complete it.
C-W Feb 18th 2009 10:50AM
The idea I'm getting for how the encounter will play out is basically a 3x40-man raid offense and 3x40-man defense Wintergrasp battle, with the defense as NPC's, the relic as the boss, and the layout as a giant hallway.
Of course, all those NPC's fighting in one place could definately be hell on some machines and net connections, but it would really be a true WAR...
Moltare Feb 18th 2009 10:51AM
It's not the scaling that irritates me about current vehicle encounters, it's the horribly clunky feel of combat that the extra layer of separation entails.
I hope they plan to look into that at the same time.