8 things raiding guilds want from their applicants, #5-8
5. Gear is sometimes an issue.
"I'm sorry. I know you like her, and she's a perfectly nice person, and I wish this weren't the case, but I can't justify spending 2 to 3 weeks' worth of raid lockouts just to get her within 10% of the lowest person on the meters."
This becomes more true the farther a server gets into raid content and if you've miscalculated Rule #1. Gearing up a character in dungeon blues isn't tough when a guild is farming Naxxramas and sharding gear that's not even going to offspec. Gearing up a character in dungeon blues is going to be a much larger undertaking when said guild is struggling through Icecrown. When we were killing ourselves trying to meet the raid DPS requirement for pre-nerf M'uru, I had to wonder at the overconfidence of players who were applying with Kara-geared toons.
The less well-geared your character is upon acceptance, the more time the guild has to spend gettting you kitted in purples, and the less your character is actually going to contribute to raids in any serious manner for the duration. They wouldn't have recruited you if they didn't need you (don't ever forget that) -- but if your gear needs work, you represent a time investment on their part. If there's just no way that the guild could ever get you up to par (see: M'uru example above) in time for you to make a difference to the raid, then you need to be realistic, accept that you're in over your head, and apply elsewhere.

6. Gear is sometimes not an issue:
"Actually, with the spec he's using, that blue could be considered best in-slot until tier. The non-set stuff just isn't itemized well for that build. It doesn't scale well once you get into better gear, but the spec's perfectly reasonable for where he's at."
Always apply in the best pre-raid gear, gems, and enchants you can get. You may think it's stupid and wasteful to drop a ton of gold enchanting blues that you hope to have replaced, but the symbolic effect of a character that's been maxed in every way possible --or, as the case may be, not maxed -- can't be overstated. If one or two slots are lacking, supply a reason for it; we all know that sometimes you just have crap luck with drops.
You need to demonstrate that:
7. Why you left your previous guild is a matter of intense interest.
"It's a load of crap. 'I don't get along well with poor players," well, that part's true enough. He also doesn't get along well with good ones. I'm not running a finishing school for social delinquents."
I can't say it more baldly than that. Not providing a reason is pretty much the kiss of death. Providing a good reason is usually enough to get a recruitment officer to nod and move to the next line on the application. Providing a bad reason is either the kiss of death or functionally equivalent to a good reason, depending on how you choose to phrase it. As an (hypothetical) example:
Bad reason: "I got into a fight with the GM because his gear's better than mine and he took upgrades over me. The officers are his friends and naturally took his side and they started treating me like crap. I'm not going to put up with that, so I left."
Any recruitment officer worth his or her salt will immediately be on alert after a statement like that. This may be 100%, totally, completely factually true while still being a dishonest representation of what actually happened.
What was your attendance like? Was this a case of upgrades going to a 90% attendance raider over a 30% one? Are you the type of player who habitually dies 10 seconds into the fight? Was your healing or damage constantly below the threshold that might be reasonably predicted by your gear? These are all questions to which a recruitment officer would want answers, because no sensible person wants to be the next victim of a Me First attitude and a flexible approach to the truth. You'll probably be asked about it, or -- much worse for you -- your former guild will be.
Good reason: "I had a disagreement with my GM over loot distribution. My attendance fell to 60% after a week's absence due to final exams, which I'd notified the officers about in advance. He used the temporary 60% attendance figure to justify taking an i-level 226 upgrade over me, even though I'm still using a blue in that slot and he was using a Naxx-10 piece. We never reached an agreement over the issue, and I'm uncomfortable remaining in a guild where the letter of the law is used to defeat its intent, so I left."
That's an awful lot more reasonable -- and, for that matter, provides information that can be independently verified. The GM may very well shed more light on the issue as a means of defending himself ("I got the Naxx-10 piece while your applicant was off leveling his alt! Boo hoo!"), but that still establishes that the bulk of your story is true.
Conflict will happen. We understand that, and some of it will (for one reason or another) lead to serious arguments or even /gquits. The real question is how you choose to conduct yourself during it.

8. Spend time on your application. Spend time on your application. Spend time on your application.
"Seriously, would it have killed this guy to write more than fifty words on the whole app, including his name?"
Nothing screams "Don't bother taking me seriously" more than a bunch of one-word answers to questions. It's the written equivalent of a non-committal grunt to a reasonable question. Minimal effort does not result in maximum gain unless you've hit the motherlode of being a badly-needed class or spec while the guild's beating its head against a wall (e.g. Shamans, especially Resto Shamans, in Sunwell -- a situation that Blizzard is deliberately trying to avoid in future raid content). While this does happen from time to time, don't count on being a guild's ticket to World of Warcraft's version of punctuated equilibrium.
You don't need to apply in the same fashion that you'd apply for, say, medical school, but we expect to see some evidence that you didn't toss your application together in 5 minutes and then click Submit. Someone who does that will leave the recruitment officer wondering if you approach raids in the same haphazard and uninterested manner. The less interest you appear to evince in the quality of your app, the more we're inclined to think that you're just here for the gear, and that's one of the worst possible impressions to leave with people who actually want to raid with players they enjoy.
"I'm sorry. I know you like her, and she's a perfectly nice person, and I wish this weren't the case, but I can't justify spending 2 to 3 weeks' worth of raid lockouts just to get her within 10% of the lowest person on the meters."This becomes more true the farther a server gets into raid content and if you've miscalculated Rule #1. Gearing up a character in dungeon blues isn't tough when a guild is farming Naxxramas and sharding gear that's not even going to offspec. Gearing up a character in dungeon blues is going to be a much larger undertaking when said guild is struggling through Icecrown. When we were killing ourselves trying to meet the raid DPS requirement for pre-nerf M'uru, I had to wonder at the overconfidence of players who were applying with Kara-geared toons.
The less well-geared your character is upon acceptance, the more time the guild has to spend gettting you kitted in purples, and the less your character is actually going to contribute to raids in any serious manner for the duration. They wouldn't have recruited you if they didn't need you (don't ever forget that) -- but if your gear needs work, you represent a time investment on their part. If there's just no way that the guild could ever get you up to par (see: M'uru example above) in time for you to make a difference to the raid, then you need to be realistic, accept that you're in over your head, and apply elsewhere.

6. Gear is sometimes not an issue:
"Actually, with the spec he's using, that blue could be considered best in-slot until tier. The non-set stuff just isn't itemized well for that build. It doesn't scale well once you get into better gear, but the spec's perfectly reasonable for where he's at."
Always apply in the best pre-raid gear, gems, and enchants you can get. You may think it's stupid and wasteful to drop a ton of gold enchanting blues that you hope to have replaced, but the symbolic effect of a character that's been maxed in every way possible --or, as the case may be, not maxed -- can't be overstated. If one or two slots are lacking, supply a reason for it; we all know that sometimes you just have crap luck with drops.
You need to demonstrate that:
- You care about your gear (which is one of the inescapable outward signs that you care about your performance)
- You have a good sense of your class and spec's capability
- You have at least a passing familiarity with the theorycraft and/or common-sense reasoning behind the importance of particular talent and gear choices
7. Why you left your previous guild is a matter of intense interest.
"It's a load of crap. 'I don't get along well with poor players," well, that part's true enough. He also doesn't get along well with good ones. I'm not running a finishing school for social delinquents."I can't say it more baldly than that. Not providing a reason is pretty much the kiss of death. Providing a good reason is usually enough to get a recruitment officer to nod and move to the next line on the application. Providing a bad reason is either the kiss of death or functionally equivalent to a good reason, depending on how you choose to phrase it. As an (hypothetical) example:
Bad reason: "I got into a fight with the GM because his gear's better than mine and he took upgrades over me. The officers are his friends and naturally took his side and they started treating me like crap. I'm not going to put up with that, so I left."
Any recruitment officer worth his or her salt will immediately be on alert after a statement like that. This may be 100%, totally, completely factually true while still being a dishonest representation of what actually happened.
What was your attendance like? Was this a case of upgrades going to a 90% attendance raider over a 30% one? Are you the type of player who habitually dies 10 seconds into the fight? Was your healing or damage constantly below the threshold that might be reasonably predicted by your gear? These are all questions to which a recruitment officer would want answers, because no sensible person wants to be the next victim of a Me First attitude and a flexible approach to the truth. You'll probably be asked about it, or -- much worse for you -- your former guild will be.
Good reason: "I had a disagreement with my GM over loot distribution. My attendance fell to 60% after a week's absence due to final exams, which I'd notified the officers about in advance. He used the temporary 60% attendance figure to justify taking an i-level 226 upgrade over me, even though I'm still using a blue in that slot and he was using a Naxx-10 piece. We never reached an agreement over the issue, and I'm uncomfortable remaining in a guild where the letter of the law is used to defeat its intent, so I left."
That's an awful lot more reasonable -- and, for that matter, provides information that can be independently verified. The GM may very well shed more light on the issue as a means of defending himself ("I got the Naxx-10 piece while your applicant was off leveling his alt! Boo hoo!"), but that still establishes that the bulk of your story is true.
Conflict will happen. We understand that, and some of it will (for one reason or another) lead to serious arguments or even /gquits. The real question is how you choose to conduct yourself during it.

8. Spend time on your application. Spend time on your application. Spend time on your application.
"Seriously, would it have killed this guy to write more than fifty words on the whole app, including his name?"
Nothing screams "Don't bother taking me seriously" more than a bunch of one-word answers to questions. It's the written equivalent of a non-committal grunt to a reasonable question. Minimal effort does not result in maximum gain unless you've hit the motherlode of being a badly-needed class or spec while the guild's beating its head against a wall (e.g. Shamans, especially Resto Shamans, in Sunwell -- a situation that Blizzard is deliberately trying to avoid in future raid content). While this does happen from time to time, don't count on being a guild's ticket to World of Warcraft's version of punctuated equilibrium.
You don't need to apply in the same fashion that you'd apply for, say, medical school, but we expect to see some evidence that you didn't toss your application together in 5 minutes and then click Submit. Someone who does that will leave the recruitment officer wondering if you approach raids in the same haphazard and uninterested manner. The less interest you appear to evince in the quality of your app, the more we're inclined to think that you're just here for the gear, and that's one of the worst possible impressions to leave with people who actually want to raid with players they enjoy.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Athenodorus Feb 19th 2009 9:15AM
#9: Read the darn guild forums. This is a gigantic source of frustration for officers in more casual guilds: People who expect to raid but simply do not contribute to discussions on the forums, and are therefore unaware of what is going on.
Clint Feb 19th 2009 11:14AM
Yup. Guild forums are very important to the guild, but in this case to the gulid recruitment officer. Often he/she is the same as the website manager, and showing in your app that you cared enough to read the forums is a big plus.
ex. Most guilds have their loot distribution spelled out on the forums. An app referencing that they have read and understand them shows a lot for who they are as a guild member.
crsh Feb 19th 2009 2:13PM
Oh dear God, yes. This has been the worst issue in our small 10-man guild; they don't use the forums/sign-ups, or if they somehow get around to it, they just randomly show up or not. And they bitch at us if they don't get in the raid too.
Biggest peeve of ours for us officers/GLs.
Deathanddk Mar 7th 2009 1:50AM
I can't stress how important it is to read the guild's thread usually titled, "READ THIS FIRST". I just applied to a guild on Terenas and at the very bottom of the thread it has specific instructions of what to type into your answer when asked about the thread. It's amazing to see how many applications were rejected, not simply because they were poorly written, but also because they didn't fully read the "Read First" section.
Culhag Feb 19th 2009 9:22AM
#8 is so true.
It's amazing how some people almost just throw "I want to join your guild for raiding" without even a link to their armory, and when we point out how their application is bad, they just say "sorry i suck at writing applys"
Just look at how other people did ! it's not hard !
Birdfall Feb 19th 2009 6:13PM
I had a member talk his friend into applying, and the member comes to me and says the guy will apply but he's not good at writing.
And I'm sitting there thinking "If he knows that, why can't he get someone, like this member, to read it over for him and correct errors?" And, indeed, the application was awful. Do people just use bad writing skill as an excuse to be lazy? Because bad grammar doesn't mean you can't THINK about your answers before you put them down. Poor writing does not equal stupid.
SarahTheGnome Feb 19th 2009 9:29AM
I am the guildleader of an RP guild rather than a raiding guild, but I agree wholeheartedly with 8. Our application is rather long, but we do this so that the applicant has ample opportunity to prove willingness/competence to RP. Sadly, despite a warning in the beginning of the application that first impressions last long and that the application is very important, we get awfully sad ones from time to time. There are question that are to be answered IC, and often a simple yes or no is all we get. And we know that it can be a lot better, which is proven by amazingly, beautiful long and thorough applications. Short, concise ones always make me wonder; 'do you really want to be in our guild, or do you merely want to be in a guild?'
Allison Robert Feb 19th 2009 11:13AM
"Do you really want to be in our guild, or do you merely want to be in a guild?" is actually a pretty accurate means of summarizing a *lot* of what we think looking at bad applications.
steve Feb 19th 2009 9:43AM
All of the articles in this vein (how to app with a guild) offer pretty reasonable advice about putting your best foot forward that seems modeled after applying for a job. But what I see in practice is that there are about 2500 active 80s alliance side on my medium pop server (according to the admittedly flawed warcraft census data, so who knows what the real number is) and about 30 guilds (counting alliance and horde) that seem to be making enough headway to at least be most of the way through naxx if not clearing it. The vibe seems much more like being in a large high school deciding whose table you are going to sit at during lunch than applying for a job, just because the raiding population is that small.
The point being, it doesn't pay to be too picky about who you app with or who you accept, just because the choices are limited unless you are willing to transfer to another server. I imagine it is a different story if you are in the top 3 or top 5 raiding guilds on your server, but as a middle-of-the-pack casual raiding guild, we have enough natural attrition from people quitting or going to play with real life friends on other servers that I think we'd be out of the raiding business if we weren't pretty forgiving on the app process. We are going through a rebuilding process now after a group split off, so this topic is very much on everyone's mind. I would be curious if others have had this same beggars-can't-be-choosers experience, or maybe this is just unique to my server or guild.
Allison Robert Feb 19th 2009 11:21AM
Applying to a high-end raiding guild actually does bear a striking resemblance to applying for a job. And yep, guild circumstances will vary, and the raiding "pool" is different on each server, but this is much less true nowadays as you can move between servers a lot more easily than you could when PvE to PvP transfers weren't possible. Even on small servers you can find a lot of talent if you look hard enough -- and truth be told, it's one of the reasons I still PuG.
Nothing attracts people so much as consistent success if you're interested in building a better raid team with off-server applicants. Build a stable Naxx clear, and they will come.
Firestride Feb 19th 2009 9:52AM
Lol, applying to medical school. Applying to medical school took 8 months of my life and over $3000. I wrote almost 10,000 words of essays. I nearly sued a faculty member for backing out of writing me a letter of recommendation (6 months of "I'll write it next week" culminating in "I never said I would write it"). Definitely, please keep your guild applying well below this level.
Pat Feb 19th 2009 10:02AM
That reminds me of when I possibly got published. (In a small state college publication. Still peer-reviewed though.) One year of, "We had to push you back to the next issue" before I gave up caring. I just changed my resume so it was still technically accurate.
I hope it never got published, over the years, I've come to despise it's flaws, like most of us creative types do.
Also, the topic was something that ended up being a polarizing issue during the presidential campaign.
Matthew Rossi Feb 19th 2009 11:25AM
On the other hand, if you DO put that much effort into it, the guild will probably reject you out of sheer terror.
Dez Feb 19th 2009 10:00AM
The feedback you can receive on a well-done app is flattering. Firstly it's an application, so even if it's for a guild it still feels like you applied for a job and got a golden ticket. This is more true if it's a good guild and you really want to join, and the fact that you spent time and effort on your app. It's like "yay im accepted and they like me too". It's a nice feeling, whilst I've never really applied for anything serious (jobs) I think that made me a little more aware of how it feels. Even if it wasn't required I want to do my app well, because I want to be taken seriously, this would apply in real life as well.
Ultimately it's like this: If you're not that serious about it, it's not all that important to you in the first place.
jader Feb 19th 2009 10:02AM
On my server there seems to be a sense of entitlement among the alliance players. Suggesting someone should apply to join a guild is normally met with a, "Appping a guild...lawl...it's not like your paying me to be in your guild"
The alliance on my server are outnumbered about 5 to 1, yet we have all these egos here that think the smaller raiding guilds(like mine) should be falling all over themselves to get them.
My guild full clears 10 man content every week, we would like to move to 25 mans, but we won't bring in attitudes like those mentioned above to do it. So we are stuck in 10s for now.
Allison Robert Feb 19th 2009 11:26AM
Honestly, most of the time you're better off not having people with that kind of attitude. You may be losing 25-man progression in the short term, but (imo) you're saving yourself a tremendous amount of trouble in the long term.
Your success ultimately springs from the quality of the people you've got. There is no amount of good leadership that will compensate for players with a bad attitude, and picking one up just to get through content today is like willingly accepting a ticking time bomb.
Lemons Feb 19th 2009 12:27PM
pfft, I wouldn't app to ur crappy little guild. If you're a smaller guild demanding people to fill out an application you'd better not just be able to clear 10 man naxx, but also maly, and sartharion 3D.
People don't want to fill out an app to join a small guild, no matter how leet your small guild is. That's the irl equivalent of the old lady across the street making you fill out a full job application to mow her lawn. You best get a different recruiting method, or I can guarantee you're not going to be running 25 mans for a while yet.
jader Feb 19th 2009 12:35PM
and douchebaggery like that is what is wrong with our server...
raiding guilds on our server normally last for a total of 3 months...they clear content and then get fed up with people like the above and the decent players transfer. The douche's move on to the next guild they want to destroy.
We intend to prevent that from happening by weeding people out through the application process.
PS Sarth3D is happening for us tonight
Lemons Feb 20th 2009 11:36AM
Lol @ jader, I am a decent player...In fact I'm one of the most decent players in my guild. Not wanting to fill out an app =/= sucking at the game.
I take my role very seriously, I show up to every raid, and I don't complain. I'd like to think I'm the model player.
But I'm not going to fill out an app! Just realize that while you are keeping out some bad players your also keeping out some good players that don't like it when a guild in a freaking video game is acting like it's a damn employer.
Anuine Feb 19th 2009 10:14AM
Waow.. And I thought WoW was a game !
That looks more like "what you should do when you're looking for a job".
I don't know if it's only a culture difference, but someone who would say "I'm uncomfortable remaining in a guild where the letter of the law is used to defeat its intent, so I left." would be immediately tossed away in my guild ! That's so pedantic (especially considering that half of the population isn't able to write a single sentence correctly in their own native language) !
I see guilds like a bunch of friends (or will-be-friends) with the same interests in raiding content and with the same playstyle (could be very serious, or serious but we sometimes make jokes, or whatever).
If a guild becomes a professional organisation or a military organisation, I guess I'll live asap.
However, your other points remain absolutely valid, and I would add to #8 "Check grammar, syntax, and spelling, and do yourself a favor : no SMS-style please".