Are disenchanters getting robbed by rolls?
by Mike Schramm 
Feb 21st 2009 at 2:00PM
Sardonis sent us a note the other day, with an interesting, if probably controversial, point inside: when we're in instances, Skinners take their skins, Miners take their ores, and Herbalists take their herbs (or of course they rotate around if there's more than one). At the end of the instance, we don't sit down and /roll on all of the herbs or ores that people have picked up. So why do we do it, Sardonis asks, with disenchanting shards?Good question. My first response was that everyone needs enchants, and everyone can use those mats. But if everyone can get their friendly guild enchanter to enchant something, can't you get your Leatherworker to use skins, or your Blacksmith to use ores? Of course, you could argue that Leatherworkers can get skins from anywhere, but disenchanted blues only show up in instances. If it's an item that required five (or even 25) people to get, everyone should have a chance at it. There are herbs and ores in instances, true, but those can be found elsewhere as well -- they don't need a group to get them. And what about Rogues who unlock chests in instances -- sure, we need them to open the chests, but they need us to get them there.
You can get blues through questing and drops, though, too, so who knows who deserves what. Sardonis is at the point where he won't even say he's a disenchanter -- he'll just do a greed roll like everyone else, and if he gets the item, then he'll DE it. The tradition seems to be that we all roll when we've all helped drop some boss loot, but it's true that we'd never get the shards if it weren't for DE'ers. Maybe they do deserve to take what they make.
Filed under: Enchanting, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Enchants
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 12)
Aron Feb 21st 2009 2:07PM
Only fair way to do it if enchanters want to keep the mats. Is to *not reveal* that they are enchanters. And then roll *GREED* on items. If they win it, then they can DE and keep mats.
But the can't expect to have the party give them the items just because they can/will DE.
Marc Feb 21st 2009 2:15PM
How is this different from DEing and then rolling on a shard?
The enchanter in either case has to win the roll to get the item/shard. Only difference is if you DE then the winner gets an item of higher value that cost you mere seconds to create.
Aron Feb 21st 2009 2:22PM
I was only saying that, if enchanters wanted to keep the mats to themselves.
Duck Knight Feb 21st 2009 2:25PM
The solution is simple enough. Roll just like everybody else and DON'T Disenchant until you're out of the group. I don't see why it's that much of a problem.
MarkA Feb 21st 2009 2:48PM
That's exactly what I do. Roll greed on everything, BOEs to the AH and DE everything else that I win.
Works great, no hassle.
Demanding all non-needed items from people is literally robbing them of the gold they'd otherwise get from the vendor. I would never do that.
Eisengel Feb 21st 2009 2:52PM
TBH I don't know why this has come up now. In vanilla there is no way you wouldn't roll on shards, in BC it was common practice, but sometimes people didn't mind if you just took them. Now, in Wrath, I've rolled for the shards I've DEed maybe 4 times so far.
In general I think players are much, much less concerned about shards. One reason may be that they are required for Enchanters to learns good enchantments. Another may be that most of the higher enchantments need some pretty hefty mats, requiring a lot of many different types of shards/dusts/essences and eternals and gems, so the cost of acquiring the materials is so high, people aren't as interested in them. It could also be that Wrath gear is quite beefy on its own and a lot of higher enchants just don't seem worth it. How many casters out there have +50 spellpower on their weapon and not the super-expensive +68? Also, how many casters are really going to put Black Magic on their weapon either? I don't think that performs well for anyone. Given that the cost vs effect ratio is pretty light for the high enchants, it seems most people are happy with lower ones, which are much easier to get as well.
Healtuff Feb 21st 2009 2:55PM
This is what I do.
Most of the time, people wont even roll on an item if they don't think there is a DE available.
Unless they inspect my rings. =P
Dragoest Feb 21st 2009 6:40PM
I have an enchanter toon as well and I learned early in TBC to keep low about my enchanting.. I'll greed everything I can.. and will need anything i can get away with.. like off spec.... my shammy is nealy alway resto... but you'll always see me roll for DPS Gear for off set if no one else wants it.. it just helps make sure I can get ahold of a few more blues or epic without having to let the pug know... and if I get a sharp one to sees my rings enchanted..then maybe i'll D/E.. but it'll warn then I'll keep one or 2 shards my self.. they don't like it?.. then I don't have to DE... or they can find another healer... since i know they are just all over place..
Korriban Feb 21st 2009 6:07PM
As an enchanter I think that d/eing all the bop drops is the best option for me. On my server shards are always rolled for at the end, and often there is one for everyone in the group. I'd rather have 1 shard most runs than take my chances with the rng.
I haven't increased my chances of getting a shard at all by being selfish, just made sure the others members got less for the rolls they won. Since you don't gain anything by not d/eing I can't think of one reason why I wouldn't do it. The time it takes to d/e is far less than other delays we put up with from groups on a regular basis. I never felt like I deserved a tip for that. I'm only talking about bop drops here.
The herb and ore argument isnt valid at all either. If there is no herbalist the herbs stay there. Same with ore nodes. However someone will always get the bop drops to sell. Those gathering professions aren't taking away from someone else.
S?hrtogg Mar 1st 2009 4:43PM
*hiding* the fact that you're an enchanter is plain enviousness.
---- greed:
20% chance to get the epic BoP -> d/e to get yourself a shard
80% chance to let somebody else get some vendor trash
---- d/e roll: need the BoP, d/e, then /roll
AGAIN 20% to get the shard
difference: 80% chance to give any of your party members a valuable abyss shard.
You do not lose anything yourself by disenchanting the drop. By hiding your profession you just ripped off 4 other people who were kind enough to group up with a selfish grump like yourself.
Be nice next time.
Oink Feb 21st 2009 2:07PM
Valid point, never really thought of it this way. There are two sides to the argument, although since wrath, I normally let whoever disenchanted the item take the shards. It aint cheap to level enchanting.
oldwisemonk Feb 21st 2009 3:41PM
@Oink
That's true that it's not cheap, and as an enchanter, I like this belief. But I generally think every "drop" in the instance is fair game for everyone running the instance. The only caveat is that if something requires a profession in order to obtain it, we should tip the person with the profession.
If we want ore, we tip the miner. If we want skins, we tip the skinner. If we want something DE'ed, we tip the enchanter.
Pretty simple, in my opinion.
Andy Feb 21st 2009 4:02PM
While you do put up a compelling argument I look at it like this.
If there are no Herbalists, then the herbs stay in the ground.
If there are no Miners the Ore stays in the vein
If there are no Skinners the creatures remain unskinned.
Likewise, if there are no enchanters in your group, the loot is rolled upon and becomes vendor trash. If you are an enchanter it is a courtesy to disenchant the said vendor trash. That is not to say perhaps the enchanter deserves a small tip for their courtesy service.
Something else to keep in mind. One way or the other this vendor trash will be rolled on at some point; it might as well be in shard form
My best advice. Roll on the shards at the end and tip your friendly neighborhood enchanters for increasing the value of your spoils.
Xtyle Feb 21st 2009 4:18PM
@oldwisemonk
nah.. not that simple at all. Present to any miner a "tip" for the mined ore and you'll get laughed out of the group.. same with herbs and skinners. The effort and mechanics in collecting these materials and end value are so diverse, it's dependent on people to treat them independently unique.
If a shard cost, say 50g for the sake of argument, then that miner would need at least 2.5 STACKS if the ore is moved at 1g each on the AH. So the 5 Cobalt Ore a Miner just got is a rather insignificant (1/10th in this simple presentation) comparison to most shards/dust. Not to mention, as far as treating them as mat's alone... Where 1-6 shards might be needed for certain chants, much more ore is needed for JC's to get their gems... BS to make their items.. and whatnot. Shards/Ore/Herbs/Skins are similar, but entirely different.
I usually pass the shards right on to my friends. Even if rolls were made, I'll sit on the shards and when it's needed, I'll hand em over. If I don't have shards at the end of a run, I could care less.
@everyone else
The PROBLEM is the general mentality of folks feeling they're entitled to be taken care of. If you're that hung up on Shards/Ore/Herbs/Skins.. then you're probably even moreso hung up on gear drop issues or rare pet/mount drop issues.
If you want a seemingly endless supply of shards/dust. Play nice, share, and get over yourselves. When you do this, people will start to run with you on a consistent basis. They'll likely have no issues with you stocking up on shards/dust because it will come back to them in the end.
I hate the "OMG they got something easier than me!" mentality. It's an MMORPG (Implies playing WITH others), not an AFMAEEITTGMWIWRPG (All For Me And Everyone Else Is There To Get Me What I Want Role Playing Game.) Get over yourselves.
twothing Feb 21st 2009 6:27PM
` So if i pay you the cash you could of vendered it for whin you win the roll i can keep the shard?
` Right?
` To bad no one likes that ideal.
Pål Feb 21st 2009 8:41PM
Imagine an epic that vendors for 20g, but disenchants into an abyss crystal that sells for 100g on the AH. The difference is 80g.
The ore wouldn't be there without a miner. The skins wouldn't be there without a skinner. The flowers wouldn't be there without a herbalizer. The 80g difference wouldn't be there without the enchanter.
The enchanters who think all unneeded loot should default to them are greedy indeed. The ones who think the difference between the vendor value of the item and the AH value of the crystal should go to the enchanter are reasonable.
I propose a rather simple solution to this. Simply have the enchanter distribute the vendor value of the item to the group, either by rolling or splitting it. Round it up if the enchanter can't be bothered to enter the exact number.
Pål Feb 21st 2009 9:16PM
Just to add some context here. I'm an enchanter. This issue doesn't matter much to me at all. I'm not proposing that solution because I want it that way, I just want the problem to end. I'll happily disenchant the drops and hand out shards and crystals even if I don't win any of them. I have all the Wrath enchants and I don't charge a fee for doing any of them. I picked enchanting not to earn money, but to be useful. And that I am.
Nathanyel Feb 21st 2009 10:19PM
Big BUT:
When you greed an item and lose it, it's gone, only gives the winner a bit of money. If you win it, you can DE it and get one shard/crystal.
When you need and DE, and roll for the DE'd items at the end, you actually get the statistically same amount of items (ofc you don't roll for each item, but distribute them according to /rnd rolls) but unlike when greeding, the others you ran with get some Enchanting mats out of those items they would have otherwise vendored.
Of course, going with a random group, it's difficult, but in a guild/friend group I would always leave mats to a levelling Enchanter, and when at maxskill, the Enchanter usually calls for rolls at the end of the instance anyway.
oldwisemonk Feb 22nd 2009 2:26AM
"The enchanters who think all unneeded loot should default to them are greedy indeed. The ones who think the difference between the vendor value of the item and the AH value of the crystal should go to the enchanter are reasonable."
Well put.
So an enchanter that wants the BoP drop for the purpose of DE pays the vendor price to the person who wins the /roll. If the person who wins the /roll would rather have the shard, he/she pays a DE fee or tip to the enchanter.
fauxgt4 Feb 22nd 2009 12:33PM
Oink, I wish I met more people like you in Pugs.
There is a simple solution to this problem I think. I have a macro:
"/p This is a group run. We share things as a group. I will shard any drops not needed, and we can roll on them. However, any ore, herb, or skin that is obtained during this run will also be rolled on."
Its that easy. If someone refuses to share, point out the only reason they made it that far in the dungeon was because of the group, so we all have an equal right to it.
If they won't let other roll on it, I will either remove them from group, or leave the group myself.
It keeps it easy, and fair for everyone.