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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsAre disenchanters getting robbed by rolls?
by Mike Schramm 
Feb 21st 2009 at 2:00PM
Sardonis sent us a note the other day, with an interesting, if probably controversial, point inside: when we're in instances, Skinners take their skins, Miners take their ores, and Herbalists take their herbs (or of course they rotate around if there's more than one). At the end of the instance, we don't sit down and /roll on all of the herbs or ores that people have picked up. So why do we do it, Sardonis asks, with disenchanting shards?Good question. My first response was that everyone needs enchants, and everyone can use those mats. But if everyone can get their friendly guild enchanter to enchant something, can't you get your Leatherworker to use skins, or your Blacksmith to use ores? Of course, you could argue that Leatherworkers can get skins from anywhere, but disenchanted blues only show up in instances. If it's an item that required five (or even 25) people to get, everyone should have a chance at it. There are herbs and ores in instances, true, but those can be found elsewhere as well -- they don't need a group to get them. And what about Rogues who unlock chests in instances -- sure, we need them to open the chests, but they need us to get them there.
You can get blues through questing and drops, though, too, so who knows who deserves what. Sardonis is at the point where he won't even say he's a disenchanter -- he'll just do a greed roll like everyone else, and if he gets the item, then he'll DE it. The tradition seems to be that we all roll when we've all helped drop some boss loot, but it's true that we'd never get the shards if it weren't for DE'ers. Maybe they do deserve to take what they make.
Filed under: Enchanting, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Enchants
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 12)
Itanius Feb 21st 2009 2:34PM
On the contrary, Disenchanting *IS* a gathering skill. Name another way to obtain the shards/dust/etc required to level Enchanting.
Chris Feb 21st 2009 2:54PM
I am an Enchanter and I am poor, why because I cannot sell my farmed mats on the AH, my services I get tipped 1-2g per enchant if I am lucky. So I have a new policy you want me to D/E sure I will do it for 50g a roll, because that is what I can take most of those extra mats to the AH for. I have yet to receive a tip at the end of the instance for D/E'ing anything; any other profession would be cursing up a storm if they did not get paid for their services, plus do you even know how long it takes to get enchanting skilled, especially when every nub in a pug wants you to D/E blues. So I say to 'ell with ya, if you don't like it swap to enchanting and find out. Yes I am with the rest of you I don't even tell people anymore I roll for greed even if there is someone in the PUG who wants to D/E, because running instances is my farm. If they complian I drop and leave them half-way through an instance.
-one cach poor enchanter who is tired of "what everybody else wants"
DragonFireKai Feb 21st 2009 2:46PM
Enchanting does indeed have a gathering profession. It's called tailoring.
Pudie Feb 21st 2009 2:52PM
While tailoring does help a bit, not every enchanter has it. Some take up "real" gathering professions for easy gold. Some take up a second crafting one. Some take up professions based upon their unique aspects(extra gem slots, ring enchants, etc). It's not all "Tailoring/Enchanting or gtfo"
justlikehoneybaby Feb 21st 2009 3:05PM
Raising one's enchanting to the level for DEing in level 80 instances didn't take anyone "a few minutes" and wasn't free. I have heard similar justifications for not tipping enchanters. The latter, however, is really just a cover for being greedy/cheap tho.
DragonFireKai Feb 21st 2009 3:07PM
"While tailoring does help a bit, not every enchanter has it."
But that argument could be turned around on any crafting profession.
While skinning does help a bit, not every leatherworker has it. Some take mining or herbing for superior gold output. Some take a second crafting profession. Some take up a profession for the unique aspects. It's not all Leatherworking/skinning or GTFO.
Should we roll on skins?
Marc Feb 22nd 2009 2:38AM
No matter how hard you might wish it, DE is NOT a gathering skill. You accepted this when you chose enchanting. You do not gather greens and blues from instance runs. You get your share from rolls.
GerardthePriest Feb 21st 2009 2:11PM
It's been suggested in my guild that we should let any enchanters in the group (there's usually one, maybe two) have a shard uncontested, and then have the rest be rolled on, with the enchanter(s) still having a roll. So that way the enchanter will always get a shard, and everyone else has a chance, too.
Personally as an enchanter I'd rather be able to Need all the green items, if we're talking about how to reward enchanters in an instance. I have shards enough, but am always low on the other mats.
danawhitaker Feb 21st 2009 3:49PM
"Personally as an enchanter I'd rather be able to Need all the green items, if we're talking about how to reward enchanters in an instance. I have shards enough, but am always low on the other mats."
And this is why I don't like to run with enchanters I don't know well. That's not even a remotely balanced request compared to the amount of ore/herbs that show up in instances for other tradeskills. *Everyone* can take greens to the AH and sell them. I make a significant amount of cash this way to supplement my jewelcrafting. I would always always rather put BoE gear on the AH because I know how painful it's been for me at some levels to find appropriate gear and weapons - probably because someone DE'd it before it got within a mile of the AH.
A significant portion of my enjoyment in an instance is derived from getting green/blue loot. I will walk away the second I get an "I DE, can I need all the greens?" request. I don't mind losing rolls fair and square to other people in the group, I do mind being told from the get-go that I should feel obligated to give up a chance at all those items. It was bad enough when this happened in my own guild. I can't imagine someone even having the audacity to even ASK this in a PUG.
In regards to blues, which generally are BoP anyway, I'm only for handing them off to the enchanter if the shards are going to be split. Otherwise, sorry, again, we ALL have tradeskills we need to level and gold to make. If I can sell it and make money off it, I don't just want to hand it off. Jewelcrafting is expensive too.
My attitude might seem a bit selfish, but I've run into way too many enchanters with an entitlement complex over the years. So now I just put my foot down.
deffo Feb 21st 2009 2:12PM
i don't think they have any more right to drops than anyone else. it's the nature of the profession if you don't like it then get a new one. if you don't want to have to roll on shards then just de them after you leave the group.
kabshiel Feb 21st 2009 2:13PM
Trust me, you're actually hurting yourself by not telling people you're and enchanter and DEing the items. I always offer to DE unwanted items, tell people to roll for them at the end of the run and then nine times out of ten people either forget or decide they don't want to waste the time and I get to keep all the shards.
Jbell Feb 21st 2009 6:27PM
^^^^^^ this
I avoid running with scrubs, and people who are geared are usually way too lazy/don't care about the blue shard at the end. They will roll on the purple, but the others i end up keeping.
Also, people have complained that I don't have the 40 stam to bracers yet. It costs 5 Abyss crystals, and I will never need the enchant (and our 'guild enchanter' already has it). Tip more than 1-3 gold and I'll consider it.
Alizar Feb 21st 2009 2:14PM
Certainly valid points, but I have to fight everyone else for herbalism nodes. So if they want to greed all the drops to DE and make some money. Maybe I should greed all the drops so I can vendor.
stcmmoon Feb 21st 2009 2:14PM
I'm a nice guy, I give all the greens I win to the enchanter at the end of any of my pugs.
Alathorn Feb 21st 2009 2:14PM
I have to laugh every time this comes up. In the end, to the enchanter, what is the difference?
If you do tell the group you can DE, you get all the drops no one can use, you then DE them, and everyone rolls on the shards at the end.
If you don't tell the group you can DE, you roll on the items as they drop, and DE what you get. Either way, you still have to roll on the drops.
Disenchanting items on a run is simply a courteous gesture. Everyone (including the enchanter) still has the same odds to get an item either way. Plus, it's a good move to do, since it's one more thing people can remember and appreciate you for. Better odds of joining the same people for a run later (since this isn't an issue in guild runs, it's just a PuG issue.)
Andrew Feb 21st 2009 2:15PM
That ' s the trick; the skinners and miners are taking something that no one else could have gotten. The disenchanters are taking loot that anyone could roll on, and turning it into something more valuable.
Enchanters that are just greeding and secretly DEing mats have the same chance of having a shard at the end of the day, but are needlessly and unkindly refusing the rest of the party the opportunity to DE and up the value of the blues they won.
Marc Feb 21st 2009 2:18PM
Exactly. An enchanter has the same chance to win shards whether the party rolls on shards or if the enchanter tries to win greed rolls and DE them later!
bloodangels Feb 21st 2009 2:34PM
I as an enchanter have felt this pain all too often. I do the courtesy of Deing all the blues that drop for shards and you know what i get at the end, shafted out of gold. As a chanter the only real way we have to make any money is off our DE'd items we have, either via selling enchants or selling the mats. Weekly i De blues only to have these people undercut me consistenty only for me to either lose money from what i could have sold(which otherwise would have been vendored and never seen again) or i myself have to lose more money to undercut them. If you want to bring up the conversation of why not be nicenand just DE, then i want every herbalist, miner and skinner share every item that they get when runnign the instance. I know we woul dhave never gottne them without that class being in the group but wouldn't the same hold up for us as well? At the end of the day, we all need belt buckles for our belts rom the mined ore, we all need the herbs for potions and the furs to make crafted cloaks and stam/resist patches.
Chris Feb 21st 2009 2:59PM
With the exception that if no enchanters are DE'ing for you then you have to buy your mats off the AH, you get more high-level enchanters. I know everytime I need a new rod I don't roll for mats from the miner because I need the ore to give to a blacksmith to get the rod, I have to buy it off the AH. We just want the same consideration.
fauxgt4 Feb 22nd 2009 5:06AM
I'll keep the fact that I'm a DEer quite in Pugs.
My having the skill generates gold for everyone in the group that they wouldn't have without me. Having a miner in the group generates gold that we wouldn't have without them.
Difference? The miner/skinner/herbalist will NEVER offer to share the increased value he brings, while the enchanter is expected to.
Why? I have no idea.
I'll keep it to myself thanks. The day a miner/herbalist/skinner offers to share his stuff, I'll start announcing that I DE again.