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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsAre disenchanters getting robbed by rolls?
by Mike Schramm 
Feb 21st 2009 at 2:00PM
Sardonis sent us a note the other day, with an interesting, if probably controversial, point inside: when we're in instances, Skinners take their skins, Miners take their ores, and Herbalists take their herbs (or of course they rotate around if there's more than one). At the end of the instance, we don't sit down and /roll on all of the herbs or ores that people have picked up. So why do we do it, Sardonis asks, with disenchanting shards?Good question. My first response was that everyone needs enchants, and everyone can use those mats. But if everyone can get their friendly guild enchanter to enchant something, can't you get your Leatherworker to use skins, or your Blacksmith to use ores? Of course, you could argue that Leatherworkers can get skins from anywhere, but disenchanted blues only show up in instances. If it's an item that required five (or even 25) people to get, everyone should have a chance at it. There are herbs and ores in instances, true, but those can be found elsewhere as well -- they don't need a group to get them. And what about Rogues who unlock chests in instances -- sure, we need them to open the chests, but they need us to get them there.
You can get blues through questing and drops, though, too, so who knows who deserves what. Sardonis is at the point where he won't even say he's a disenchanter -- he'll just do a greed roll like everyone else, and if he gets the item, then he'll DE it. The tradition seems to be that we all roll when we've all helped drop some boss loot, but it's true that we'd never get the shards if it weren't for DE'ers. Maybe they do deserve to take what they make.
Filed under: Enchanting, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Enchants
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 12)
unigolyn Feb 21st 2009 2:36PM
I have a toon that's a chanter. What you're proposing is completely ridiculous. The ore in the dungeon would rot if it wasn't mined. The gear is lootable by all.
Also, when I'm on my other toons, 9 times out of 10 I pass on the shard anyway, unless an epic got d/e-d and there's an abyss crystal.
Saying the abyss crystal should go to the enchanter is like saying the Frozen Orb should go to the healer, because it's clearly impossible to kill any heroic boss without one of those.
Spiral Feb 21st 2009 2:38PM
The materials that Skinners, miners, and herbalists receive in instances is the same as those that they can get anywhere else in the world. At least in 95% of all cases.
The materials Enchanters get in instances would not be possible for them to get without the cooperation of the group.
Withholding the fact that you can disenchant is just greedy. Think of it this way: a BoP blue item drops. It vendors for 5g, and dream shards can get you say, 15g. If you keep secret that you can disenchant, the rest of the group only makes 5g off the drop while you make 15g. If you lost the roll anyway, why keep the fellow player in your group from gaining more money from it?
Chamual Feb 21st 2009 2:42PM
As an enchanter you can DE all the blues and share the mats out at the end, or you can just greed roll like anyone else and DE only the blues you win.
The interesting thing is that on average you will end up with more shards if you DE and share, as then you are g'teed at least a shard every run. If you say greed roll you can easily loose every single blue and come out with nothing.
I would say DEing all blues for the group is the best way. Sure, the mats are mats for your profession but the items they come from also vendor for gold to anyone else. It's not like ore or herbs where if there is noone in the party to gather them the others would still get gold from the item.
If you expect to get all the blues to DE and keep the shards for youself then you are actually taking money away from the others as they could vendor those blues for gold.
Grubba Feb 21st 2009 2:43PM
I know this is a tangent off the main point, but it made me laugh:
"And what about Rogues who unlock chests in instances -- sure, we need them to open the chests, but they need us to get them there."
Have you completely missed that there are no locked chests in instances anymore? This is a dead issue.
Jyotai Feb 21st 2009 2:50PM
We roll on shards because we don't roll on the items that got sharded.
IE: If you are auto giving all loot nobody wants to the enchanter, then you're not rolling on it - but it still has value.
So the roll comes in at the end instead, when it gets sharded.
You could instead roll on the item, and then let people carry away their BoE's and get them sharded on their own later.
dengarsw Feb 21st 2009 2:51PM
The thing is, unlike, say, herbs, selling a green, blue, or epic can be decent cash compared to, say, a few scraps of leather (aside from certain types). As well, like the article says, a group is required to get the drops, so the loot should be divided by the group.
I have no problem with enchanters hiding their ability to DE, until another DEer admits it. When DEers than try to roll need b/c "they need mats," I call BS. I see no reason to try to steal mats when someone is trying to use their skill to help the group. If you can also DE, great, that's fine, you can DE any greens you win. But when someone offers to DE for THE GROUP, it's time to be a team player.
Shaskatha Feb 21st 2009 2:58PM
The enchanter requires a group in order to kill the bosses and thus get the items it drops. So it makes sense to distribute the enchanting mats amongst the group.
But I can see the other side of the argument very well.
MarkA Feb 21st 2009 2:53PM
I call B.S. on that. If you want the 15G from the DE'd mats, feel free to spend the thousands of gold necessary to raise your enchanting skill and DE them your damned self.
Enchanters don't somehow owe you using their skills any more than you owe them yours.
Kards Feb 21st 2009 2:59PM
That's cool if you want to think that way, but by the same token, they're no more entitled to the loot that drops from the boss as anyone else in the group is. If they don't want to share their DE's, then they can roll greed like everyone else and /pray.
Emorich Feb 21st 2009 6:25PM
this is the same problem that they used to have way back when in UBRS. the pristine hide of the beast was worth a ton of money, but only skinners with +skinning stuff could get it. there was always a conflict between who had a right to the skin.
"i went through all this trouble to get the finkle's skinner, and you cant get it without me, i deserve it"
"yeah? well have fun killing the beast by yourself"
duskhawk Feb 21st 2009 2:54PM
Everyone rolling greed instead of letting the enchanter DE and rolling on shards decreases the number of shards available across the board, which will inflate their cost on the AH. That would make enchants more expensive for everyone, in addition to making it more expensive to level.
I pass on shards about 75% of the time anyway. I figure since I have my own enchanter, I don't need them as much anyway.
Treason of Farstriders Feb 23rd 2009 3:16PM
Oh god this is a retarded article.
No, the enchanter shouldn't get to keep the shards.
When a miner mines saronite, only the other miners lose something
When an enchanter takes unwanted items and *keeps all the shards*, everyone loses the gold from vendoring.
I have a 450 enchanter, this is completely retarded. It's SO easy to get mats, from having JC/BS craft stuff or from buying greens of the AH. It is SO easy to make money with this profession.
Sleutel Feb 21st 2009 3:23PM
I agree with what a number of other people are saying. To reiterate...
With a gathering skill, if no one can harvest a node, there's no loot, so the person with the skill to harvest gets to keep it.
With a DEable item, it can still be sold to a vendor--DEing first just adds value, and requires nothing from the chanter other than an extra click.
So, shards are group loot, just like anything that comes out of a locked chest.
BlairA Feb 21st 2009 2:59PM
How about this......
I'm an enchanter.... so for the people complaining about losing money from being able to vendor the blue, The enchanter takes the blue, gives the person who rolls greed the cost of the vendor item and then (enchanter) gets to keep the shard. That seems fair. I get shards to level my skill, you get the gold for the item. (But not the same amount as the shard I get, if you want that good deal, level the profession yourself ;)
The Lords Breed Feb 21st 2009 3:01PM
There's a very simple answer to that.
If no one is a miner, the ore gets left behind.
If no one is a skinner, the skin gets left behind.
If no one is an herbalist, the herb gets left behind.
When have you ever said "No one can Disenchant this? Leave it on the body, no sense vendoring it."
You're comparing a gathering profession, which if the item cannot be gathered is simply unuseable to loot which can be used ( sic: vendored ) in a different manner.
Pfooti Feb 21st 2009 3:20PM
Spot on. Don't conflate the generation of the shard with the mining of a node. The item would have gone to someone else anyway.
LandMineHare Feb 21st 2009 11:24PM
If no one is an enchanter, the item doesn't get turned into a shard.
So, technically the shard will be "left behind" and the blue item will just be sold.
The Lords Breed Feb 22nd 2009 4:06PM
"If no one is an enchanter, the item doesn't get turned into a shard.
So, technically the shard will be "left behind" and the blue item will just be sold."
That's flawed thinking. The shard would not of been left behind, the shard would never of existed to begin with.
With your logic, me getting a vasectomy is leaving my non existant children behind?
I am unsure what you meant by your comment, as in, I do not know which side you were defending by it.
Yeng Feb 23rd 2009 2:09PM
Actually, it's not flawed thinking. It's what they call 'Opportunity Cost' in Economics. It's the perceived value lost by making a decision to do something else. It is often used to make tough decisions in business.
Minishark Feb 21st 2009 3:02PM
Saying enchanters should get all the shards would almost be the same as saying tailors should get all the cloth from an instance. It just doesn't make sense. Its not a gathering profession like herbing, skinning, or mining, so you cant compare them.