Breakfast Topic: Raiding: How easy is too easy?
Karthis, a feral Druid from the Garona-US server, wrote a thought-provoking treatise on the current end-game on his blog a few days ago. Of course, he's hardly the first to declare the current end-game far too easy, but he brings a very interesting angle to the discussion -- namely that of the casual.He interviews various casual raid guild leaders in his piece. These are guild leaders who, back in Burning Crusade, mostly ran Karazhan and maybe dabbled a bit in Zul'aman. They certainly were far behind the curve. But they had a dedicated core of 10 raiders who got together, faced the challenges, and overcame them. But now, even these casuals are saying that the end-game is just too easy.
One guild leader interviewed is finding that some of their raiders have gotten all the loot they need from Naxxramas and maxed out Northrend Achievements and Reputations, and, for lack of anything to do, are not logging on for days or simply letting their subscriptions lapse altogether, leaving their guild leader to make the painful decision once Ulduar comes to either refuse to give them their raid slots back or kick out their replacements.
Another guild leader is just beginning Naxxramas, but whereas in BC there was a sense of excitement and challenge at starting Karazhan and Zul'aman, the guild leader says now that Naxxramas fills a bit like a glorified PuG, one more dungeon you run for badges and loot, rather than an epic challenge like BC-era raids.
Karthis ends by insisting that Ulduar won't solve any problems. "Hard Mode" doesn't really create any new content. Most guilds won't try the Hard Mode, and the few that will will still burn out on running the same content over and over again, even if they can bump up the difficulty on certain fights.
Of course, these stories are anecdotal, so it's hard to say how true they are overall. Still it's thought provoking all the same, especially to hear traditionally "hardcore" complaints coming from casual guilds. I'm still pretty in love with Wrath, but I know I'm quickly running out of things to do and finding myself hoping 3.1 has more content than just Ulduar to keep me busy. I also have to wonder if simply dressing the same encounter in a new set of clothes by insisting raids deliberately handicap themselves or fight counter-intuitively and calling it "hard mode" will really keep anyone's interest in the long run.
The comments on the blog actually bring up good points as well. One commenter believes that 2.4 actually put dungeon accessibility where it needed to be by removing attunements and creating badge and craftable gear that was just below raid power level. They just started too late, then overcompensated in Wrath by lowering difficulty too much.
It seems like the argument comes down to a few basic questions: Is the End-Game too easy? Is there too little content? And finally, are "hard mode" achievements with better loot a valid end-game mechanic, or simply a way to mask the fact that the end-game content is too easy and too sparse?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics, Raiding, Wrath of the Lich King, Achievements






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
Yvels Feb 22nd 2009 8:12AM
I was expecting some challenge... and its pretty on a farming mode all around... as kara on the end of BC ... more content Blizz; you want us play your game a lot : we became better. Do the same.
Zul Feb 22nd 2009 11:44AM
I don't like the idea of casuals running around in full T7.5 (call me an ass w/e), it is just not how WoW is supposed to be. Hardcore raiders waste so much time and effort I think their should be a reward larger than a title and a mount.
I have two solutions, make 10 man much easier (but not ez) than 25 man. Casuals can decimate Arthas too. I'm all for everyone enjoying the game. This way the hardcores still feel "special"
or
Make a few of the uber weapons and tier tokens drop from the hard modes.
Andrew Feb 22nd 2009 2:07PM
No No NO. 10mans are not the fake raid. 10mans are not for casuals only. 10mans are not for scrubs! the 10man of a raid is for people who prefer less people, higher expectations from each of their members, more social familiarity and a tighter raiding family than the impersonality that constantly plagues 25man content-clearing guilds.
Even in MC/BWL, you could have 10 people /following not carrying their weight and still push through content. 10mans can barely carry 1 person underperforming. I like that tightness of purpose. Everyone has to know what is what.
Clevins Feb 22nd 2009 2:27PM
The problem is two fold -
1) If you can raid 2-4x per week, the current content is easy to clear even if you've never seen the encounters before. You will wipe seeing them the first time, but it's not just people who saw Naxx in vanilla WoW that are clearing content.
2) There's not ENOUGH content. I've said this before, but imagine if TBC had shipped wit Kara being puggable at the start and then you have Gruul and Mag. And that's it.
Kara/Gruul/Mag were hard on release and got nerfed over time. They were probably tuned too hard, but what that meant is that it took sometime toget through them and even when you did... you had SSC and TK sitting there. It's as if we already had 2 Uldaur raids in the game RIGHT NOW. Instead the detuned the starter raids AND don't have content past them available.
Note: Hardmodes are not content.
Fuseitana Feb 22nd 2009 2:36PM
Zul, when you see some dude in T7.5, how do you know whether that dude is 'casual'? Because he's not in your guild and you don't know him? What defines 'casual' in your pinprick of a brain?
I run Naxx EVERY GD NIGHT and I still call myself casual, because we don't freak out when we wipe.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Feb 23rd 2009 9:31AM
Ha, don’t make me laugh. What I’ve noticed is that 25 mans are considerably easy as CAKE, meanwhile people struggle on 10 mans. Do you know why? Because with 25 mans you can afford to be a little sloppy, you have extra people covering your buts. In 10 man EVERY single person has to pull their weight. There’s no crap about goofing off or not, if you’re not doing your job, you’re screwing over your team. I think 25 mans are alot more fun and easier because they’re not so strict as 10 mans.
Vlatch Feb 23rd 2009 5:36PM
I agree and disagree with some of the comments posted here. 10 mans CAN be harder because of the need for each person to do their part. Are they harder right now? Absolutely not.
I run mostly 10 mans and I find the content just as easy, if not a bit easier. No worries about MC on Kel'T...no "LF1M, must be SPriest" for Razuvious....etc etc. Heroic is a bit harder and requires a bit more for the moment.
Maybe soon, we'll see what real hard modes like ZA with 4 chest timer can do for an instance. Even Sarth 3d with 10 man is harder, but the reward isn't necessarily worth the effort. A bear mount guaranteed...so worth the effort.
Sammy432 Feb 22nd 2009 8:14AM
For small, very casual guilds I think that the current level of raiding is easy enough. It allows a newly joined player base to experience raiding at a lower level of difficulty in preparation for a harder one. I think this is a good thing, and for those who say "too easy" well, Ulduar is out soon isn't it, have fun with more challenging content.
Sam
Tora Feb 22nd 2009 8:15AM
It's "Karthis" not "Karthas".
Envo Feb 22nd 2009 8:27AM
I normaly dont write comments, however i feel the need to. The hardmodes are a good idea, but blizzard are overdoing it. I remember when I started playing in BC, seeing all those t6 players. When i grew up to be myself a t6 player, i still was amazed by people with sunwell gear in Orgrimmar, Inspecting them and linking their items in guildchat. For my guild, there was a reason to raid, wipe on Gorefiend, becouse someone didint know how to handle the ghosts. I remember MGT heroic, where you ran it everyday to defeat that freaking Princess for best in game trinket, to CC the trash. Now in WOTLK, our first Naxx 25 run was rather wipeless, all trash were aoed, bosses oneshotted. Then we killed rather easily Malygos. And we dont try really hard to kill Sarth 3D....Ofcourse for progress its good, but killing it for your Achievment sucks. The only diffrence now between a Casual and Hardcore is not gear. But Mounts and E-Peen Meeters (achievments). I just really hope that Ulduar will be ~TK/SSC-MH Level. Not Karazhan Level + BT Level Hardmodes.
Eternauta Feb 22nd 2009 10:14AM
IMHO; they should do this:
10-man = easy mode
25-man = real challenge
That way, there could be content for casual and hardcore alike.
Casuals explore the content, Hardcores get the real phat loot.
Currently everybody is on T7.5 epics, even the less skilled players.
Let's make a difference between casual and hardcore, but not forbidding the casuals from experiencing the high end content like it happened in the BC with, for example, Sunwell.
imo, 10-mans should be to "experience the content and know the raid", and 25-mans to the "pro-raiders" with more challenges.
I'm a casual, so I want to have a chance to see how the high end raids are, but I also understand that dedicated hardcore raiders need a real big challenge according to their capabilities, to keep the entertained and with a goal to aim for.
I, as a casual, want to be able to explore all the content and go to icecrown citadel and kick Arthas' frozen butt; but it's good to have the hardcore there facing the real challenge, someone to look up for, and recognize their efforts and skills as a "pro player"
Sry if it was too long.
trogdor7 Feb 22nd 2009 12:57PM
As a 10-man raider, I'm not a big fan of your idea. Just because I like raiding with fewer people doesn't mean I'm not looking for a challenge. Now, I am in a large guild, and we could probably put together a 25 man, but myself and the other raider who have taken on the responsibility of explaining fights to new people don't want to deal with the bull that 15 extra people bring to the table.
Personally, I love the concept of the hard mode. Remember, a blue has said that in Ulduar, the hard modes will in fact drop better loot. They won't just be for mounts, or for achievements and titles. You'll actually get better gear. Also, if your complaint is that "the raids are too easy", what should it matter if the hard modes drop better loot? The raid is harder, and that's what you've been complaining about.
It seems to me that the real complaint is "Everyone has gear." To me, the easiest way to fix this doesn't involve making Ulduar harder. The way to do it is to make whatever the new Archavon boss is only drop PvP gear, or drop PvE gear that's a tier behind. Right now, it's the first cycle of PvE. Yeah, cool, everyone gets some T7. I have no problem with that. But if it gets to the point that every fresh 80 in a bunch of greens can go kill, eventually, Archavon 4 and get Arthas loot? That's a problem.
Mindreaver Feb 23rd 2009 8:41AM
I'm sorry but 10 player raids aren't the easy ones... it's facerolling though 25 mans that is the real easy modes.
1) Access to every buff in the game
2) Always have bloodlust/heroism
3) 5 people can be fucking terrible. Die instantly. And you still
do fine. 2 people die in a 10 man, and it's a wipe.
4) Individual players are MUCH more important. If you have 2 healers, and one is terrible, you don't finish. On a 25 man, half your healers can be total fucking scrubs, and you still do fine.
On the current content, 10 mans are the hard raids. Maybe in ulduar that will change, but it is unlikely.
Note: There some fights that I consider harder on 25 man, and that is only because there are more people to screw you over. Thaddius is a good example. Thaddius lets the stupid warm bodies that you bring to pad the roster on a 25 man raid wipe the rest of you. Thats why terribad raids have such a hard time on it.
Liel Feb 22nd 2009 8:35AM
I think Blizzard made the game better with the changes. Compared to when I first played the game at launch and raided 40 man content upto AQ40, yes it was challenging back then but people in my guild got burnt out quickly and we were replacing people every few weeks.
Now Blizzard wants their content to actually be used by the majority and even now I seriously doubt the majority is seeing it just a greater percentage compared to ever before which is a good thing.
If anything just make the 25 man versions a lot harder so the "hardcore" players get their challenge. But I think what the hard cores want is exclusivity to dungeons to see and do things others cannot. Me? my guild only can raid two nights a week because most of them can only get on for two hours max after 9pm due to young children, we are only half way through Naxx but having fun which is a point of video games.
Based on our progression I would assume we would clear content soon after the release of the next batch of dungeons meaning we will have stuff to do all the way through to the next expansion which is what I think is Blizzard's intention.
Anteia Feb 22nd 2009 8:40AM
You know, I didn't feel that anything was 'too easy' until multiple previous hardcore raiders in my raid group started proclaiming it was. I started to feel badly for actually still considering the heroic achievements something to feel good about, Champion of the Wastes something to be proud of, and being well geared something to find fun. To them, this was no big deal. To me, who never got a chance to get past Karazhan because I was in classes for most of BC, it was special and unique. Am I completely off in feeling that people's mentalities towards these achievements and raids actually have more to do with dicontent and perception of 'easiness' than the acutal raid? How many ways are Blizzard supposed to be able to come up with to design raid encounters without getting more and more gimmicky?
Take Thaddius for an example. An old raid boss, he hasn't really changed much since Naxx was in EPL. But his fight, even then, is gimmicky. Defeat the two monstrosities at the same time, make sure you can make the jump or possibly die in ooze, kill the whole group because you didn't move fast enough or weren't far enough when you thought you were. Is this a harder fight? Or just one with more gimmicks? It's certainly one that tends to cause wipes until the group gets it down, but does that make it more difficult or just more vexing? I think there's distinct difference between the two.
If people want encounters to be 'hard', where do you draw the line between blocking people out of seeing half of the lore (Come on, this is the TITANS coming up and the LICH KING afterwards. The latter has been building up since WCIII.) or being difficult enough? I certainly like the idea of fights like Sartharion, where people get rewards, gear, and titles based on how difficult they choose to make it. Yes, having a hard mode DOES matter if the rewards are intriguing enough. Are people just in it for the loot, or are they in it for the challenge? I'm in raids so I can see the lore and participate. I get loot, yes, so I can better help the raid - but I realize I may never see the 'harder' modes of instances. 3d Sarth may never happen for me. I want a chance at that mount, so that's sad, but it's just how it works.
It's not a question of "How easy is too easy"? It's "How difficult are you willing to make it for yourself just for the enjoyment of doing so?" As long as Blizzard offers achievements and possibly mounts and titles, what right does anyone have to complain about an instance being too easy? So, it's too easy. But people want to be geared for Ulduar and there will always be people like me who were a bit starry eyed upon getting to be in raids. Naxx is too easy when every guild is starting to get Undying AND The Immortal. Otherwise? I'm not buying it. It's just you're not actually challenging yourself with the tools Blizzard has already given you.
Eisengel Feb 23rd 2009 4:39AM
I heartily agree... quoting my comment here from the previous RaidRx post that was in response to another comment.
I actually really appreciate a lot of the design and gameplay effort that has gone in to the current stable of Wrath instances/raids.
1. Hard stuff is there, but it is optional.
Yes, you can still find a challenge if you want it, but you have to choose it. Instead of putting a 50 foot high steel-reinforced concrete razor-wired wall in the progression path, Blizzard put a 10 foot high wooden tower. This means more people can actually see what they are paying Blizzard to spend all that time making. Plus, there are the dungeon and raid achievements if you want a challenge. Some aren't all that hard, but some... really... are. I've seen epicced 80s that used to raid MC in vanilla wipe like noobs in heroic Azul'nerub... on the 1st boss. It definitely takes a lot of skill, finesse and attention to pull off some of the achievements.
2. All raids will be better tuned.
Think about it, gearing out in Naxx-10 gear should be pretty much possible for almost everyone... so Blizzard can assume you'll be wearing that gear. What does that mean? They can tune subsequent raids much, much better. If they can pretty much know what gear you'll have going in, they can have a pretty good idea what you're capable of.
3. Everything is useful.
Does anyone remember trying to get Lower City rep in BC before it was granted in a few Achidoun dungeons? How about running specific instances over and over for specific gear, just so you could be raid-ready, so you could go raid and replace it? How about trying to get a group for instance X, but it doesn't drop any good tank gear, so you can never find a tank? Nearly every Wrath instance has useful loot from at least 2 bosses for basically every spec of every class... and they are easy enough that pretty much everyone can run them. Some heroics are definitely harder, but at least they're all worth it. Even if you don't need the gear, there are badges to get, as well as the tabard rep system.
This isn't all of Wrath, it is the initial deployment. All the instances can give you gear you can use, rep you can use, badges you can use, and they're all easy enough that almost everyone can get through them... so that everyone will be ready when the new, harder raids and instances are patched in.
If Blizzard designs the new content around elite raiders, only they will be able to complete it, and 99% of us will be stranded on the curb. If Blizzard designs the new content around 3-hour-a-week intermittent logins 90% of us will finish everything in less than a month. However... if Blizzard makes the initial game easy for everyone to gear up to a certain level... then everyone can take a crack at the next level, and if they want a challenge, they can choose to go for achievements.
Personally, I love this design philosophy. Things always change, so there is no perfect answer, but this seems like one of the best iterations Blizzard has hit to date on balancing gear, reputation, and the different levels of ability and progression across their user base. Not to mention the environment is hands down better than a lot of BC (not all... but a lot), and I think the questing in general has been the most fun I've ever done in WoW.
So... please... two deep breaths. Let them work. So far they've done a great job. They're just setting the stage for the content patches to come ... this is definitely not all of Wrath.
Viper007Bond Feb 22nd 2009 8:41AM
Naxx 10 is easy, but it's the very first raiding instance. It should be easy. Think big picture. When the next expansion comes out and we look back on the raids available then, there shouldn't be any walls (like there was with Kara).
Honestly though I'd just like to see the 25 man versions of stuff harder. Leave 10 man's easy and with poor gear so people can see the content, but make the 25 man versions hard, even without the optional difficulty increases. I want killing a boss for the first time to be hard, not a joke (like it was with Naxx 25).
Hell, my guild is having a hard time doing Sarth 3D, not because of the fight (okay, a little, but not so much), but mainly because we can't get people to show up. They don't want to wipe on it for a few nights just to kill a boss they have already killed. They have no interest in achievements or the mount that drops.
Rollo Feb 22nd 2009 7:07PM
How about making 25 man raids easy and 10 man raids hard? Then 2.5 times as many people can get to experience it casually. ;-)
Viper007Bond Feb 23rd 2009 12:10AM
Because 25 man drops better gear and requires more coordination, etc. PUG'ing 25 man's is terrible.
Treason of Farstriders Feb 23rd 2009 12:59PM
I second the "make 25 man's easty and 10 man's hard"
Don't drop better loot, just different loot.
--Treason