Breakfast Topic: Raiding: How easy is too easy?
Karthis, a feral Druid from the Garona-US server, wrote a thought-provoking treatise on the current end-game on his blog a few days ago. Of course, he's hardly the first to declare the current end-game far too easy, but he brings a very interesting angle to the discussion -- namely that of the casual.He interviews various casual raid guild leaders in his piece. These are guild leaders who, back in Burning Crusade, mostly ran Karazhan and maybe dabbled a bit in Zul'aman. They certainly were far behind the curve. But they had a dedicated core of 10 raiders who got together, faced the challenges, and overcame them. But now, even these casuals are saying that the end-game is just too easy.
One guild leader interviewed is finding that some of their raiders have gotten all the loot they need from Naxxramas and maxed out Northrend Achievements and Reputations, and, for lack of anything to do, are not logging on for days or simply letting their subscriptions lapse altogether, leaving their guild leader to make the painful decision once Ulduar comes to either refuse to give them their raid slots back or kick out their replacements.
Another guild leader is just beginning Naxxramas, but whereas in BC there was a sense of excitement and challenge at starting Karazhan and Zul'aman, the guild leader says now that Naxxramas fills a bit like a glorified PuG, one more dungeon you run for badges and loot, rather than an epic challenge like BC-era raids.
Karthis ends by insisting that Ulduar won't solve any problems. "Hard Mode" doesn't really create any new content. Most guilds won't try the Hard Mode, and the few that will will still burn out on running the same content over and over again, even if they can bump up the difficulty on certain fights.
Of course, these stories are anecdotal, so it's hard to say how true they are overall. Still it's thought provoking all the same, especially to hear traditionally "hardcore" complaints coming from casual guilds. I'm still pretty in love with Wrath, but I know I'm quickly running out of things to do and finding myself hoping 3.1 has more content than just Ulduar to keep me busy. I also have to wonder if simply dressing the same encounter in a new set of clothes by insisting raids deliberately handicap themselves or fight counter-intuitively and calling it "hard mode" will really keep anyone's interest in the long run.
The comments on the blog actually bring up good points as well. One commenter believes that 2.4 actually put dungeon accessibility where it needed to be by removing attunements and creating badge and craftable gear that was just below raid power level. They just started too late, then overcompensated in Wrath by lowering difficulty too much.
It seems like the argument comes down to a few basic questions: Is the End-Game too easy? Is there too little content? And finally, are "hard mode" achievements with better loot a valid end-game mechanic, or simply a way to mask the fact that the end-game content is too easy and too sparse?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics, Raiding, Wrath of the Lich King, Achievements
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 7)
Maraetha Feb 22nd 2009 8:45AM
I'm the kind of person which runs dungeons even if they are boring or way too easy (I did kara every week even when I had BT gear...). So in one way, I keep running Naxx. On the other hand, they should make it harder (comon, its a joke now).
Thou, I don't know if "hard modes" will make it more fun. If it'll be like Sartharion (1-2-3 drakes) it'll be fun, since there is a slight change of tactics between all modes for Sartharion. But for Ulduar, if it'll stay the same tactic, only: more hp, less damage, an enrage timer,... (I don't know what else) then it'll indeed get quite boring.
poot1 Feb 22nd 2009 8:46AM
I happened to be one of those casual gamers when Wrath came out. The guild I was in had just gotten tired of Kara and had started doing ZA instead.
As a casual, there's a few things the killed my interest in instances/raids. Firstly, the massive changes to the game made pre-Wrath were very hard for casual players. I know a few folks who dropped out of the game just for that reason alone. Figuring out a good spec is a lot of work for casual players. It takes us a long time to get one we like and are comfortable with. Taking away all the talent points and forcing us to redo a spec is very painful. And add to that the fact that Blizzard continues to make sweeping changes to class mechanices with every single new patch and you have a situation where it's very hard for casuals not to get alienated.
Another problem is indeed the difficulty. As a casual feral druid DPS/off tank, I was able to level to 80 and do nearly all the basic non-heroic 5mans in my 70 gear. At no point were any of them fun or interesting. The lack of any need for crowd control made them very boring for me, as did the lack of any decent loot drops. And then I got to heroics. The difficulty jump between heorics and normal was so high that I could not make it past the first boss in heroic mode. I had to spend hours digging around through forum posts and patch notes to figure out how to fix my gear, then spend a couple of weeks collecting the new gear. That is a lot of effort to put in when Blizzard seems like they'll just change the entire system again in a few more patches, causing me to have to do it all over again.
Ultimately the instability and boring instances drove me away from raiding, and I have since dropped my guild and gone back to solo questing.
eadipus Feb 22nd 2009 1:51PM
I was in pretty much the same situation as a feral druid but only dinged 68 the week wrath was released. I found by checking a few blogs and doing the group quests I had a full set of blue gear at 80. Did a few 78-80 dungeon runs and then dropped straight into the easy heroics.
Jeremy Feb 22nd 2009 2:24PM
I kinda would disagree with your statement Poot that having to redo talent points can make it hard on a casual player. I had to respec. my druid two or three times leading up to WotLK and again with my shammy now twice. For the most part, its just a matter of putting the points back where they went, as in most cases stuff has just been moved around in the tree, or the costs reduced. Oh sure, when the new talents came out there was some "work" to be done, BUT even casuals have Elitistjerks.com or WoWwiki.com's talent builds as a resource of sorts. Sites that can tell you exactly where to put those points to have a good useful spec.
Due to my work schedule, I've pretty well been limited to casual status raiding. These past two weeks, work changed and allowed me to experience the other side of the coin. Honestly, I am eating it up, even though after next week I'll be relegated back to weekend warrior casual mode. Just because we are casual doesn't mean we can't use the same informational resources as the so called "hardcore" people.
As to the actual topic on hand. Naxx while fun, isn't that hard. I hear Karazahn (when it first came out) offered more challenges than this current incarnation of Naxx. I will agree for a fresh 80, for someone who had never raided before this might be a good intro, but it won't take them long to bore of it. I will also say that Achavaron kinda bothers me a bit dropping Tier gear. Great, now I can watch people get (eventually) full Tier 7.5 ahead of me, as I am not only waiting to see if the token drops but if I win the DKP bid as well. Not to mention I am last in line even on that because of my non-raider rank in the guild. Our guild/dkp rules are fair, and I understand the core raiders gettting it ahead of the casuals and slot fillers. It should be that way. What shouldn't happen is people getting the gear without doing the content/wor, H.VoA. VoA is a joke. No reason for it to drop anything but PvP gear.
I mentioned previously, on another column comments, that I heard more excitement over Vent, this Friday, when we killed KJ in sunwell (we were done with all 25 man content) than I have on current content. Our first Maly kill wasn't that loud. Nor Sarth +2 drakes up this week. I hope Sarth +3 Drakes generates that excitement.
Some people aren't showing up now, partly because Maly is dead and they have no interest in achievements, on a regular basis so now its kinda like "now what?" Our top guild on the server is all done with everything, has as far as i know geared their alts, may have made a second 25 man raid, and some got bored and even made an alt guild on the opposing faction to kill time and bored. Kinda sounds like this stuff was maybe a bit too easy to me.
Joester Feb 22nd 2009 8:49AM
Well, we we're all told by Blizzard that Ulduar will be the next hardest raid. More harder then 25man Naxx. Which will be awesome.
SBKT Feb 22nd 2009 10:29AM
Which means nothing. That is an EXTREMELY vague statement.
Devant Feb 22nd 2009 3:54PM
I for one am just sticking around to see how long it takes to clear 25 Uldar. If it takes 2 weeks like 25 Nax did I'm leaving the game.
Drfumanchu Feb 22nd 2009 8:53AM
Some will say that this comment is off the point,because of its straight forwardness.
No matter what Blizz did people would complain..and what we are really hearing is **insert whinie voice** meh..its just not perfect..i want it to do anything i want anytime i want..
And it goes back to the real question..who should blizz make the game for?The casual or the Hardcore. I cant wait to hear the QQ's when Ulduar comes out about it being too hard..
Kuri Feb 22nd 2009 9:38AM
At present, the game isn't tuned for the casuals OR the hardcore.
At the moment, it's tuned for the people who play a little bit of everything, and aren't particularly interested in anything. The super-casual gamers. The ones who have a little time, so they do a daily or two, see a PuG forming, join in, and do raids.
No, raids aren't for true elitists, but they should at least be for raiders. It's the endgame. There has to be something.
At present, it feels like there won't be another expansion, and Blizzard are almost done with the WoW project. They can't really be bothered to keep up balance anymore.
Jon Feb 22nd 2009 2:11PM
Kuri, I think you have a point.
Arthas is the biggest boss this franchise has. He's been the menacing evil since its inception.
It really does feel that Blizzard is preparing 3.3 to be the last of WoW.
1. Arthas will be "dead" at the end of it.
2. There is a new MMO in the works.
3. Blizzard as a company isn't going to kill itself by having 2 competing MMO's. They will have to close one down (probably the oldest one).
4. There is still plenty of lore around for them to continue the franchise forward without the MMO atmosphere. A Warcraft 4 anyone?
I think you're right. WoW's time is limited and Blizzard itself is creating the fabled "WoW Killer."
epic Feb 22nd 2009 2:30PM
one thing you're are leaving out is the time line of these events(measured in years not months)...and forgets the unknowns of the video game industry, the next mmo may not see the light of day, and may not be competition for wow at all but a product that is for a different type of player...nobody said it was an MMO rpg
Mark Feb 22nd 2009 8:55AM
I'm just not seeing it. I've been raiding since Molten Core. Back then, we cleared BWL, and were working our way through AQ40 when Burning Crusade was released. My guild worked our way through much of the TBC raid content, eventually clearing Black Temple and Hyjal, but never making any progress in Sunwell. We're not hardcore, but we're not really casual, either.
I'm not seeing the "omg, EZ-mode" raids. Are they easier than TBC? Absolutely. But we're still working on two drakes. And we still have a few of the raid achievements left to earn (6-minute Malygos, the less than full raid ones, two drakes, and three drakes). It seems like earning those will take us right up to Ulduar's release.
And that seems perfect to me. I'm having more fun raiding now than I've ever had.
Was wiping for hours on Razorgore week after week an accomplishment? Sure. But it wasn't particularly fun. This is fun.
I like that we've been clearing Naxx long enough that we're at the point where people just need specific drops. Maybe we'll take a couple of weeks off right before Ulduar hits, and we'll start new content feeling fresh.
Johann Strauss Feb 22nd 2009 9:16AM
I'm kind of with you on the subject.
What we all remember as good "fun" raiding in classic and TBC was often enormous frustration leading to the eventual wish that somebody will *please please please* call the raid now so I can go rest my eyes and fingers.
So I feel I am having more fun raiding with Wrath. The other problem (and downside) though is that now after the weekly reset I can quite casually with my guild get all the raids cleared in the two 4 hour evening slots on wednesday and thursday.
The only plus side is that Sarth3D still isn't done, so we're striving to do that. But its all that's left uncleared in the current game.
2 months ago I rushed to clear all the raids believing that Ulduar would be upon us by the end of February (haha) and not wanted to be caught in old content.
I welcome the 11-hard-mode bosses in Ulduar. I like the challenge, but I'll also be greatful for the ability to say "lets do hardmode x" somedays, instead of having to last many weeks repeating the same hard-mode encounter.
But whats happened is good. I have seen many players "l2p" per se because of the raid experience. And I swear that there are alot more players hanging around the game this time round, than after TBC.
Although as pointed out in the post, I've also seen alot more players staying logged-out because there's nothing left for them at the moment.
Chaelura Feb 22nd 2009 3:25PM
This.
I love that I and my casual guild actually get to look inside; there is a lot of content I never even got to get in throwing distance of in the old world, and that's a freaking bummer (dang it, I got all immersed in lore stuff, I really wanted to see what Illidan had to say... oh well). I do wonder if the hardcore raiding guilds are just not happy that we get to at all.
If you truly want it to be difficult, why aren't the hard modes enough? Why do you want casuals to be locked out of content completely? If it's about loot, well, Sarth 3D is a good example of improved loot in hard mode. What's wrong with that model?
Deb Feb 22nd 2009 9:04AM
Getting as far as Kara and dabbling in Zulaman fits my BC experience to a T. I never got to see the end game. Why? Because I couldn't find a guild that stays together long enough to let me have that opportunity. The only thing making end game "easier" for me was to make it even more difficult to find a guild that stays together. By the time I'm geared up most have finished and too bored with wanting to run me through.
Pugnus Feb 22nd 2009 9:31AM
How often is this going to continue? I mean give it a rest already.
Even the examples you give about casual raiders defies logic .... some guy bitching about Naxx who hasn't even been there, and only did Kara/ZA in BC. Yeah, it's sooo much more fun to be stuck in 2 instances over the course of a year and 1/2.
Come on ....
Psy Feb 22nd 2009 9:15AM
My cousin's actually left WoW for other MMO's because he doesn't like WotLK. He's completed all the content and he said to me that BC was much more fun than WotLK and he's just bored on WoW now because of it.
To be honest, I'm in the same boat. Whilst not level 80 yet, I can just see myself getting bored with end-game. Christ, I'm a casual-player but I'm bored now. But then, I think that may be due to me having a sort of "time limit" on video games.
It's like an expiration date. If I don't "finish" them within a certain amount of time (quoted because technically, you can't finish an MMO) then I get bored and look for other games. The only exception to this rule is if I absolutely loved the game and would actually replay it (MMO's have never given me this feeling, single-player RPGs/FPS games like the Half-Life series, KotOR, and Deus Ex, have).
Tim Feb 22nd 2009 11:25AM
I TOTALLY agree. This isn't an argument about casual vs. hardcore, it's a larger issue of "is this game any fun anymore?" All I know is I'm BORED.
* The classes have been homogenized, and all significant differences have been pounded out of them
* 5-mans were less interesting this time around. Some in fact were terrible, AND too easy. CC has disappeared from the game, and with it, all suspense.
* Northrend zones are uninteresting, apart from Howling Fjord and Zul'Drak IMHO.
* Dailies suck too, and the high-end rewards (a 20K mammoth?) aren't captivating enough to work towards
This game needs to get HARDER again, including 5-mans, so that there is more suspense and excitement. At least in BC it was challenging and fun to fight through Shadow Labyrinth, for example.
And the introduction of the Death Knight was a big mistake.
I have played this game since launch, and I loved it, but now I find myself not playing anymore. I'm letting my subs (2 accounts) lapse and I'm trying to find something else to do.
Blizz needs to wake up. Seriously. I think they are convinced they are above reproach and total geniuses. It will come back to haunt them if things continue this way.
Plastic Rat Feb 23rd 2009 3:02AM
Tim's post basically fits my views to a T.
Not just the raiding, but the northrend 5 man instances are just ... meh. Crowd control did bring a different challenge to groups. You had to know what to CC, how to use your available CC and what order to kill stuff in.
Now all you do is tank and spank everything. With DK and druid tanks nobody really bothers assisting even, because their AOE threat is just so high.
Class homogenization means no class has anything cool about it anymore and worst of all it hasn't achieved anything anyway. The elitists STILL won't take certain classes because they're perceived as a whole 2% worse than another. Warriors are now second rate tanks.
DKs are the worst addition. It makes for players that don't appreciate anything about the game anymore. OMG they can do 6k DPS while tanking!!!! Well what's the point of bringing anyone else along then, other than to bask in the incredible glory of your overpowered faceroll class? It's a hero class huh? Well what makes it a hero if every single person in the game can roll one with minimal effort? DK players need to stop fooling themselves into believing that it's their incredible skill that's achieving the results they're seeing.
WoW: Celebrating mediocrity in 2009.
Ærynn Lómëhtar Feb 22nd 2009 9:16AM
This is getting very tired... and elitist. A month before Ulduar, a lot of casual guilds haven't gotten past the Spider wing of Naxx-10 (I can hear the elitists snigger). A lot of pugging friends haven't even seen Sarth.
I am fortunate to be in a casual guild that raids regularly; perhaps by the time Ulduar comes, we would have done Maly-25... the timing is perfect. But others are not as fortunate... but they are not so badly unfortunate either.
I'm not saying the members of my guild has a homogenous reaction—those who powerleveled in a few days and have gone into "end-game" raiding quickly are getting bored... but are finding more creative ways to find the game interesting.
It's like saying "Yeah, I'm not Roger Federer... but tennis is getting boring now that I'm regularly beating people at the old club." These people do not love or like the game... they just want competition. They look on their gear and wish for the days when they were real trophies.
I have no sympathy for them. Let them brute force their way through Ulduar (instead of pacing themselves) and get bored in 2 weeks. In the meantime, the rest of us normal folk will appreciate the real game.