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The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: Raiding: How easy is too easy?
by Daniel Whitcomb 
Feb 22nd 2009 at 8:00AM
Karthis, a feral Druid from the Garona-US server, wrote a thought-provoking treatise on the current end-game on his blog a few days ago. Of course, he's hardly the first to declare the current end-game far too easy, but he brings a very interesting angle to the discussion -- namely that of the casual.He interviews various casual raid guild leaders in his piece. These are guild leaders who, back in Burning Crusade, mostly ran Karazhan and maybe dabbled a bit in Zul'aman. They certainly were far behind the curve. But they had a dedicated core of 10 raiders who got together, faced the challenges, and overcame them. But now, even these casuals are saying that the end-game is just too easy.
One guild leader interviewed is finding that some of their raiders have gotten all the loot they need from Naxxramas and maxed out Northrend Achievements and Reputations, and, for lack of anything to do, are not logging on for days or simply letting their subscriptions lapse altogether, leaving their guild leader to make the painful decision once Ulduar comes to either refuse to give them their raid slots back or kick out their replacements.
Another guild leader is just beginning Naxxramas, but whereas in BC there was a sense of excitement and challenge at starting Karazhan and Zul'aman, the guild leader says now that Naxxramas fills a bit like a glorified PuG, one more dungeon you run for badges and loot, rather than an epic challenge like BC-era raids.
Karthis ends by insisting that Ulduar won't solve any problems. "Hard Mode" doesn't really create any new content. Most guilds won't try the Hard Mode, and the few that will will still burn out on running the same content over and over again, even if they can bump up the difficulty on certain fights.
Of course, these stories are anecdotal, so it's hard to say how true they are overall. Still it's thought provoking all the same, especially to hear traditionally "hardcore" complaints coming from casual guilds. I'm still pretty in love with Wrath, but I know I'm quickly running out of things to do and finding myself hoping 3.1 has more content than just Ulduar to keep me busy. I also have to wonder if simply dressing the same encounter in a new set of clothes by insisting raids deliberately handicap themselves or fight counter-intuitively and calling it "hard mode" will really keep anyone's interest in the long run.
The comments on the blog actually bring up good points as well. One commenter believes that 2.4 actually put dungeon accessibility where it needed to be by removing attunements and creating badge and craftable gear that was just below raid power level. They just started too late, then overcompensated in Wrath by lowering difficulty too much.
It seems like the argument comes down to a few basic questions: Is the End-Game too easy? Is there too little content? And finally, are "hard mode" achievements with better loot a valid end-game mechanic, or simply a way to mask the fact that the end-game content is too easy and too sparse?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics, Raiding, Wrath of the Lich King, Achievements
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
Falcrist Feb 22nd 2009 2:22PM
Ærynn Lómëhtar said:
"This is getting very tired... and elitist. A month before Ulduar, a lot of casual guilds haven't gotten past the Spider wing of Naxx-10 (I can hear the elitists snigger). A lot of pugging friends haven't even seen Sarth."
Wow, seriously? I'm going to be blunt and say that if you see a guild that can't clear Naxx 10, those people are either bad at this game, or just don't care enough to put any effort in.
Yes, bad. You can call me elitist, but I can and have consistently cleared all 10 and 25 man content in PUGs for months now (when I didn't run with my guild). Pickup groups with random people who were often terrible players, and often had severe gear deficiencies.
The "normal folk" to which you refer are mostly finished clearing content, and some of them are in best-in-slot gear. Hell, my wife (who is quite casual) didn't get the x-pac till a month after release, had schooling which required her to move away for 6 weeks, and is still in some T7.5.
So, you go right on appreciating the "real game" (whatever that is). Some of us are a bit bored.
Ærynn Lómëhtar Feb 23rd 2009 6:09AM
You replied just to tell me what I know elitists already believe? Yes, you go ahead being bored. In the meantime, we're enjoying the game—who's the loser now?
As I said, I'm sick and tired of people who say, essentially, the same as "If you can't win at least the town championship in tennis, then it means you don't love the game, you're bad in it, or you're not putting enough time in it."
I'm sick and tired of people showing "proofs" of how "little time" they have to qualify as "normal" people, and in the same breath boast about their "phat lewt"... then complain they are bored. Whatsamatter? No more "phat lewt" so you're bored? Boo-hoo.
There are people who, just like in any game, just cannot devote the time to a raiding guild (casual or hardcore)... but it doesn't mean they suck (it's a wonder how the elitists always, ALWAYS equate lack of gear with skill). I once pugged with a hunter who can only log on every Monday night for exactly 2 hours (and therefore is disqualified for ANY raiding)... but can chain-trap better than most raiding hunters I've been with. He can get every bit of DPS that he can with the limited blues and greens he gets from quest rewards and the AH... much more consistently than the raiding hunters who need tier gear to even be competitive.
A guild composed of similarly limited people can either find a way to see all raid content... or do enough to be able to see just the start—never, never, never is the criteria of how "good" one is.
Phooey... phooey... phooey... phooey to all you elitists who, just like politicians who pretend to be like "normal folks" and then go on to start acting like the Bourgeoisie poseurs... and dictate norms.
Wyred Feb 23rd 2009 7:30AM
Sweet Jesus Ærynn, you need to get over yourself. Your first post was opinonated, and that's ok. You got a fairly reasonable reply (in which he never called you a loser btw) and you followed up with a whole bag of crazy. Seriously, relax
Ærynn Lómëhtar Feb 23rd 2009 7:52AM
Bag of crazy? A couple of people who claimed to be "casual" says they're bored... and people conclude hastily that, yes, it is true—the content is boring.
And then they proceed to maul people who aren't blessed with at least 4 hours a night, at least two nights a week to master a raid instance (anyone who says you can master a raid with less that amount of time haven't been with a guild who raids casually, at least) and call them bad.
No, he would not call me a loser. Why? Because I DO have the time to spend, and if he armoried me I have epics that go from iLevel 200 to 213 (and one 226, that I don't wear) so he won't dare. But he called people who I know for a fact is more skillful than me bad (and bluntly), and why? Because they only have enough time each week to go through one wing of Naxx 10 (which drops only very few epics) and, hence, cannot get past the gear check.
The other "casuals" who claim the content is boring and, therefore, should be made less boring should stop thinking they speak for every casual out there... and decide who is bad and who is good based on their gear's iLevels.
Wyred Feb 23rd 2009 8:55PM
Based on that, I'm gonna stick with with my original response of crazy.
Ærynn Lómëhtar Feb 23rd 2009 9:01PM
@ Wyred
And you saying so somehow makes the statement true? Hmmmm... rrrrrright.
Kubira Feb 22nd 2009 9:35AM
If you buy into the achievement system, there's tons to do. I know some folks who recently got Glory of the Raider and they are thrilled with their accomplishment (as they should be, they worked hard for it).
Conversely, my group thinks achievements are pretty stupid. Three drake Sarth is good because its a different fight that no drake, not because you get an achievement for doing it. However, Sapphiron with less than 100 frost resistance is NOT new content. Its just arbitrary.
In TBC, I was one of the folks sweating the keying for The Eye and Serpentshrine. I just couldn't seem to complete Heroic Shattered Halls as a Resto Druid. The last boss would eat my lunch. I thought I might get left behind as my group moved on without me. Fortunately, Blizz removed the keying requirement just in time.
I thought hitting a content wall like that was the worst but the truth that feeling done with the content is much worse. We have had more than one long time raider quit out of sheer boredom because they just don't buy the achievement system and without that, there really isn't much to get excited about.
One more example about difficulty: I hated heroics in TBC because of the difficulty level. However, I appreciated the skill required to beat one. In Wrath, I have never actually run a normal-mode instance. As soon as I leveled to 80, my regular group pulled me in to heal heroics in my level 70 gear and I had no problems. That's pretty inexcusable. Just for timesink reasons, I should have had to gear up in normal to do heroic.
We used to say "You don't come to Molten Core to gear up for Molten Core." Today, you totally go to Naxx to gear up for Naxx. Its just that easy.
sephirah Feb 22nd 2009 9:40AM
People against hard modes and for hard standard encounters simply don't want other to see the content at all.
I agree that Naxx is too easy (almost got [the dedicated few] AND [the undying] in the same run yesterday but we had an unlucky wipe on KT) but if hard modes in Ulduar will be like OSxD, they'll be challenging and even different enough from the standard encounter.
But sadly it seems that nowadays the only fun for "hardcore raiders" comes from the "hated scrubs" not having fun at all.
Chamual Feb 22nd 2009 3:22PM
That's not right at all. People who want hard mode encounters and lots of content and attunments want things to do. It is completely not that they want to see stuff others can not. It is 100% about having something challenging and interesting and requiring abit of effort in a game you love and want to keep playing.
It's a complete misconception that hardcore raiders want 'exclusive' content. Sure, it's nice being the first on a server to clear an instance but the real pleasure is clearing the instance. Hardcore raiders dont care what other guilds are doing any more than any other guild does, they just want new, challenging and exciting content, just like every other player does.
Chaaos Feb 22nd 2009 10:06AM
Do hard core players play for the challenge, well there will be more challenges.
Do hard core players play for the storyline, well so do we casual raiders and my money is as good as yours and therefore we should be able to see the storyline to the end also.
Do hard core raiders play for the gear that they can get and brag about? Well you will and still can get better gear then the casual raider along with the coolest mounts. You may not be able to run around with the coolest looking shoulders and weapons anymore, as more people with have access to them but you will still have some gear we will not get and some cool mounts, (just sit on the flying station in dalaran so we can all gawk at your flying mount that most of us will never get).
Are the hardcore raiders in it for all the above reasons? Well you will have your challenges that most if us will never be able to do, you will have some gear and mounts that most of us will never get. The only thing is everyone will be able to follow the storyline to it's finish and to me that is the important thing.
Really what's the difference between running oh say BT without most people not being able to see the content of it and having content that everyone can see but still have hard modes where only the better guilds will be able to do them. Yo are still doing the same raid all the time, there are just more challenges now and more people can do the easy modes... (instead of being able to say, "we cleared Sarth" now it will be, "we cleared Sarth with 3 drakes up"). That was just an example for going forward. You wil still being doing things most of wont be able too do. And im pretty confident in stating that when they put legendary weopons in this expansion it will at the very least be in only heroics modes and possibly only in the hard modes as they should be as they are legendary and only the best players should have access to those.
Aylia Feb 22nd 2009 10:09AM
When all content is easy "hardcores" and casuals will get bored.
Terribads who can't do the current content (and I'm not talking about casuals, they probably already did all the content on hardmode).
Naxx being easy? That'd be totally fine if people who don't suck at the game had something other to do. They don't. They haven't had anything interesting to do for a long time.
Cithel Feb 22nd 2009 10:14AM
I've given this a bit of thought and IMHO what they need to do, to fix the game (for me) is the following:
1. Separate PvP and PvE realms. The constant changing of class mechanics is getting very old. I think Blizzard does a good job of "balancing" but I think it would be even better if they didn't have to try to appease 2 very different player bases at the same time. I prefer PvE vastly over PvP and am very tired of messing with my spec so that this class or that class isn't overpowered. I'm sure the folks that are PvP'ers feel the same way about changes implemented for PvE content.
2. Stop this absurd idea of "bring the person, not the class". While this looks good on paper, the only way to accomplish it is to homogenize the classes to the point that they are all the same, which is the exact opposite of the reason that we choose classes to begin with. Make the classes *different* from each other again. Make classes unique like they were when the game was new. The "pure" classes should be better at their job than a "hybrid" class. The benefit to the hybrid class should be that while they are not the best at one thing they are good at *two* things which the "pure" class will never be.
3. Stop trying to put out an expansion every year. Instead put out an expansion that is worth playing for a year. This last expansion is (IMHO) a re-hash of old content in new looking zones. I can see where blizz might be out of ideas for new content or maybe there is some other reason they did it this way, but forcing people to go backwards in terms of character accomplishments is not fun for the player. A quick example of what I mean is that it is painful to grind 5k gold for epic flight only to be told that in the new expansion you won't be able to use it until you level 7 times and come up with another 1000g and even after that you will still be 10% slower cause that riding crop that you made doesn't work. Instead, design the zones so that flight is a part of the game. No one skips content because flight is integral to the stuff that they don't want us to miss. Replace the 1k riding tax with a 2k riding speed increase available at 77. Make it something better rather than take something away to give it back again.
4. Give us multiple ways to gear up for raiding or PvP or whatever a person chooses to do end game. Crafted gear should be almost as good as BOP dropped gear. Make the crafting harder. Make it almost as much of a time sink as running raids is to get geared up but give people that don't have a lot on-line pals a way to get to the end game too. Crafting in BC was much better at accomplishing this (I'm not talking uber raiding guild gear). Just the gear you need to get to the point where you are ready to get into heroic runs and start gearing up in the equivalent of Karazan. Put some quests in the game that allow you to get badges without having to have a group of people. Maybe make some weekly quests rather than daily. The idea is to quit forcing people to play a certain way to get to a certain place and give the players some options on how they want to get to end game (notice that I didn't say "easier" ways).
5. Encourage some creativity in runs/raids. Make it so that there are more than a couple ways to beat the encounters. Most runs become boring because there is one way to do it and we all do it to death. Example: This boss is tank and spank. Everyone ready? Lets go. How about adding things that the boss might do on a given fight. Maybe sometimes the boss sheep's the tank in the middle of the fight, but not every fight. Mix it up. If blizz can randomize the loot tables they can surely randomize the boss abilities so that each time you fight the same boss you aren't just seeing the same old fight again and again.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. I miss the the days of pre-bc where it seemed like things were much more fun. I thought that the BC expansion was awesome and by the time time that Blizz had done 2.4 they had really made it fun. Wotlk? Same stuff, different zone.
Tim Feb 22nd 2009 11:33AM
Some great ideas here, and I agree with you about boss fights. I don't understand why they build predictability into every fight. (I loved the MGT battle where you get a random mix of guys.)
They also should have created a few zones that were locked, AQ-style, and open only at a certain point, or only for players that have reached a certain level or requirement. Maybe a specific amount of achievement points?
Personally, I think Blizz is phoning it in at the moment.
miko Feb 22nd 2009 10:16AM
saying it's easy is just another way of saying 'i'm better than this' hence why its caught on and become an over used meme in a community which is full of over-exaggerating e-peen swinging merchant bankers.
if you do a direct comparison of the bosses in Kara and Naxx anyone who tells you (for example) that Anub'Rekhan is an easier encounter than Attumen is quite frankly talking out their arse.
simple fact is by the time most people get to 80 they know how to gear through instances and heroics, they hoover advice from websites populated by thier betters, they read all the tactics in advance for a 3 year old raid which they can now practice on in 'easy mode' with 9 mates beforehand if need be (and the remaining 3 raids are 1 boss encounters and so likewise easily researched and approached) then act like somehow that means they can strut around like the kings of raiding and proclaim 'everything is easy mode'.
as for all the 'i've done 3 drakes and i hardly had to try' crowd i put them in the same hat with the multitudes of people who i've seen who claim they did Naxx at 60 (or for that matter Sunwell at 70) ie the huge majority of them are simply liars.
some guilds flew through Naxx because they been there at 60 (and again at 70 if only for epic Argent Dawn trinkets for use in BT etc) and were placed to say it was easy due to experience and familiarity but those guilds are few and far between the rest ?... well refer to the 1st paragraph again tbh.
josh Feb 22nd 2009 10:18AM
Erynn you are bad, your guild is bad and anyone that cant do the spider wing in 10 man naxx does not count as a guild. Im sure your tired of the elitest clearing heroic vh all the time. Just because you think wiping in naxx is a creative way to stay busy does not mean that most people do. Have fun standing in the fire im sure ulduar will be your guild breaker
perderedeus Feb 22nd 2009 10:27AM
Is raiding easy right now? The 10-man stuff is, yes. Super-easy? Hardly. We're still in the introductory phase of Wrath raiding - Naxx, Sarth, Archavon, Malygos. This stuff should be easy. Not a cakewalk... it still takes time, planning, and dedication. But easy, yes. The difficulty can ramp up a bit with Ulduar (both in terms of challenging content and sheer size). Then more so in the next big content patch. And so on, so forth, until we're at the next expansion.
Solemn Feb 22nd 2009 10:33AM
Don't forget that we've had naxx around for years with all the tactics spelled out for us on a silver platter. Ulduar will be harder, atleast at the start. And besides, you can always make it more difficult by running the content naked :-)
arrogance Feb 22nd 2009 10:33AM
i'm of the opinion that this discussion should wait till ulduar is out. i agree that raiding at the moment is too easy and while more of the population will benefit from it, there should be more things for hardcore raiders to do.
the 'hard mode' mechanic will be explored more in the next patch and we will see then if it really will be effective. noone knows just how hard ulduar will be so i see no point in making assumptions yet.
Mattarias Feb 22nd 2009 11:07AM
Hey, I'm good with easy. Easy means fast. Fast means more time for fun afterward.
FoxOfWar Feb 22nd 2009 11:09AM
If raiding is not fun for you, why do you do it?