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The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: Raiding: How easy is too easy?
by Daniel Whitcomb 
Feb 22nd 2009 at 8:00AM
Karthis, a feral Druid from the Garona-US server, wrote a thought-provoking treatise on the current end-game on his blog a few days ago. Of course, he's hardly the first to declare the current end-game far too easy, but he brings a very interesting angle to the discussion -- namely that of the casual.He interviews various casual raid guild leaders in his piece. These are guild leaders who, back in Burning Crusade, mostly ran Karazhan and maybe dabbled a bit in Zul'aman. They certainly were far behind the curve. But they had a dedicated core of 10 raiders who got together, faced the challenges, and overcame them. But now, even these casuals are saying that the end-game is just too easy.
One guild leader interviewed is finding that some of their raiders have gotten all the loot they need from Naxxramas and maxed out Northrend Achievements and Reputations, and, for lack of anything to do, are not logging on for days or simply letting their subscriptions lapse altogether, leaving their guild leader to make the painful decision once Ulduar comes to either refuse to give them their raid slots back or kick out their replacements.
Another guild leader is just beginning Naxxramas, but whereas in BC there was a sense of excitement and challenge at starting Karazhan and Zul'aman, the guild leader says now that Naxxramas fills a bit like a glorified PuG, one more dungeon you run for badges and loot, rather than an epic challenge like BC-era raids.
Karthis ends by insisting that Ulduar won't solve any problems. "Hard Mode" doesn't really create any new content. Most guilds won't try the Hard Mode, and the few that will will still burn out on running the same content over and over again, even if they can bump up the difficulty on certain fights.
Of course, these stories are anecdotal, so it's hard to say how true they are overall. Still it's thought provoking all the same, especially to hear traditionally "hardcore" complaints coming from casual guilds. I'm still pretty in love with Wrath, but I know I'm quickly running out of things to do and finding myself hoping 3.1 has more content than just Ulduar to keep me busy. I also have to wonder if simply dressing the same encounter in a new set of clothes by insisting raids deliberately handicap themselves or fight counter-intuitively and calling it "hard mode" will really keep anyone's interest in the long run.
The comments on the blog actually bring up good points as well. One commenter believes that 2.4 actually put dungeon accessibility where it needed to be by removing attunements and creating badge and craftable gear that was just below raid power level. They just started too late, then overcompensated in Wrath by lowering difficulty too much.
It seems like the argument comes down to a few basic questions: Is the End-Game too easy? Is there too little content? And finally, are "hard mode" achievements with better loot a valid end-game mechanic, or simply a way to mask the fact that the end-game content is too easy and too sparse?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics, Raiding, Wrath of the Lich King, Achievements
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 7)
Guydebord Feb 22nd 2009 3:11PM
One of the biggest problems right now isn't the tuning of the game, but rather the way that the support networks and social structures have been set up in the past that aren't that applicable in the face of Wrath. That is, Blizz can tune any game any which way and likely get "QQ MOARZ" from it's players, but because Sunwell and BT were the aspirational cap of BC (and the raids before were all certainly tuned much harder) and Naxx 40 & AQ 40 were the cap in vanilla WoW, there have been years spent building up specific ways of playing the game to it's end: Learning itemization, finding class leaders, extensive applications, loot rules, mandatory raiding times, "farm nights"... In order to see all the game we had to build tightly knit, dedicated, guilds with very competitive attitudes. Not everyone spent the same amount of time in-game, but the dedication to get even a couple bosses in Sunwell down pre-Wrath meant that guilds were formed certain ways. Now, those same guilds, doing what they always do- doing what they were set up to do - doing what the members agreed to do - doing what they previously had to do to even take a peek at the deeper bosses - roflstomp everything. It's like pushing against tissue paper when you were used to cement. I'm not making a judgement about how the game should be, but just pointing out that many of the "hardcore" or "semi-core" players and their guilds aren't set up to play a game that you can pug 99% of the bosses, nor should anyone expect them to be supportive of changes to WoW that render their often venerable guilds obsolete or irrelevant.
Anowscar Feb 22nd 2009 3:21PM
I lead my guilds runs through 10 man Naxx each week. If Blizzard hadn't made the content "much easier", my guild would have never seen the inside of Naxxramas, much less gotten to finish it.
You might say we suck, but we wiped plenty of times trying to learn the bosses. But now we just finished our third clearing of the place, and we're also working on figuring out Malygos.
This is the first time in the 3 years that we've been playing together that we've been able to complete raids as a guild. Considering there's only 6 or 7 of us, it makes things difficult.
So personally I like the new system. Being a lore nerd I love being able to see bosses like Kel'thuzad and Malygos. And what I enjoy even more is seeing my friends and guildies have fun as well.
Chamual Feb 22nd 2009 3:22PM
Can you think of any other game that you can adjust the difficulty by telling it how much time you want to invest in it? I can't. Sure some games have difficulty levels but it will probably take you ~the same amount of time to beat it, you are probably just better at videogames to play it on hard mode.
Blizzards problem is that they are trying to make a game for everyone and it's just not possible. You can please some of the people most of the time or most of the people some of time.
When WoW was created it suited more hardcore players due to the way it was designed. As more people join and want to play casually Blizz reduced the complexity, difficulty, and time required to play the game. The thing is, by doing this they alienate the very players that have been playing longest and investing the most time and emotion into the game.
Blizz need to choose the direction of WoW rather than trying to do two things at once. From a purely buisiness point of view they are bound to choose the casual gameplay path as it offers more subscriptions but I think doing so is a huge blow to the face for the real gamers that have been playing from the start and given the most to the game.
J Feb 22nd 2009 3:34PM
The gaming community is NOT the same as it was 5 years ago.
The demographic is changing and gaming companies have tailor their games for that.
Everybody who purchases this game and pays monthly has the RIGHT to experience the end-game content.
Its time the elitist blowhards learn to accept that times are changing and either move on or stop being so freaking stuck up and help players become BETTER players.
Now I am NOT saying all hardcore are elitist snobs. One was actually nice and patient enough to teach me to become a better player.
What Blizzard needs to do is create servers for the hardcore players, so they can experience every aspect of the game in super difficult mode and that includes all quests and raid instances.
If Guild Wars has a hard mode for all aspects of the game so can WOW.
But hardcore players really need to tone down their elitism and haughty sense of entitlement like Blizzard owes them
Verit Feb 22nd 2009 4:15PM
Maybe my realm is full of retards (Staghelm - US Central...) but I haven't been on a pug through Naxx that wasn't completely painless without tons of wipes, idiotic strategies etc etc where we cleared more than 2-3 wings.
In my own guild we've had difficulty, but we've finally cleared all four wings (almost - just need to finish 4h) and moving upwards. Still I'm having fun.
I do understand blizzard's dilemma while doing a fun run of AQ40. I'm sitting here in this instance that I'm sure less than 1% of all wow players even set foot in at level 60 and thinking of the millions of dollars Blizzard spent developing a raid instance for less than 10,000 people.
I know a lot of the designers have been moved about at Blizzard and I'm sure someone ran a report and said WTF? Wowjutsu fyi isn't really an accurate measure of how many level 80 players are experiencing content either (for example it doesn't have a record of all guilds) - even so they had black temple pegged at 5% for the longest time and sunwell at even less.
At Blizzcon 08 one of the designers (tom chilton I think) said that it really did worry them that a good chunk of guilds spent 500+ attempts on downing muru and that he was worried about some of the solutions many guilds were using to counter this boss (things like skilling up leatherworking, stacking shamans etc). It makes sense, but removing this min/maxing thing will make raids easier.
My first raid instance - molten core - back in the day you didn't go unless you had xyz classes and a certain number of them to counter things bosses did (I know its hard to imagine, but yeah it really did take a full week to finish that dungeon) now you can just be inventive.
JDM Feb 22nd 2009 4:22PM
If you're not doing all encounters the achievement way, then you're not doing them the challenging way. If you ARE and it's still too easy, then just wait, as further raids in this expansion will be more difficult. The current raid content is scaled to entry-level.
Yamyum Feb 22nd 2009 4:41PM
Its not easy, only those that would be clearing content in TBC already say its easy. For everyone else it has the right difficulty.
But of course people will complain, they always do. If its not too hard its too easy.
Just check out how EQ became shit just pandering to the extremist hardcore, the way wow almost did and shutted out over 70% of the palyers from content.
Kanuris Feb 22nd 2009 4:40PM
I wish Blizzard would get the picture of what casuals actually are.
There people with a lot less time to invest in this game.
There not stupid. They do not lack skill. They're good players. They just can't play 24/7.
Please make raid content tough again.
miko Feb 22nd 2009 6:19PM
'Casuals' are the eleventy million plus who don't care enough to ever post on the internet and see the game as a form of entertainment rather than a means of increasing their feelings of self worth.
they also pay the bills.
DLL Feb 23rd 2009 9:06PM
I don't play WoW to inflate my sense of self-worth. I play WoW to be challenged. If we're going to talk about rights in these replies, then okay, it is my right to want to be challenged by a game that has challenged me in the past.
At the present time, I am really not feeling that.
Frago Feb 22nd 2009 5:02PM
I do not feel the current end game is too easy.
I feel that the development team slacked off and we are left with not enough content for raiding.
The lone farce that they used an old vanilla raid for this expansion should have sent up major huge red flags to everyone.
The current development team and the current Blizzard philosophy has fallen a ton. This company is beginning to siphon off resources from WOW and are content with releasing sub par or rehashed content.
When will Arthas even be available in a raid setting? a year or more at this rate.
Releasing the expansion lacking an end game is a "slap in the face".
Vault and sarth are a complete joke as well as you might add Malygos.
Look at the new content they actually made for Raiding end game in wrath. Vault - Sarth - Malygos . These are a complete cop out joke. They have not even wings to them or addional bosses to fight. They desinged a single fight and tossed it in.
These raids should have had 10 -12 bosses each and we would not be having this petty discussion and battle between uber and casual raiders.
Diogenes Feb 22nd 2009 5:15PM
This is the effect of the Wii. Why create content for the hardcore? Just make things incredibly easy and appeal to the lowest common denominator.
People forget the most popular MMO in the world is not runescape but WOW.
I am the only person in my extended family that plays WOW but all of my younger cousins play runescape. All they do in Runescape of course is incredibly dumbed-down NES-level gameplay but it makes them happy.
Likewise, why should you commit time to learn the deeper mechanics of a sport when you can just play wii sports? Lots of people can get an immediate sense of accomplishment for doing tasks that the mentally retarded can do with little effort.
Idiocracy is happening before our very eyes today folks. Embrace it, because for every intelligent person out there there are 100 casuals who are in full tier 7.5 now and are happy that they don't have to actually learn simple game mechanics, coordinate with their teammates, or help others out.
It's a Barack Obama world baby. The irresponsiblbe banks, borrowers have been bailed out already. Now the lazy and stupid wow are being bailed out by blizzard with phat epics.
J Feb 22nd 2009 5:24PM
Wow! Elitist much? Its people like you that make this game suck!
Your arrogant attitude that you are better than everyone else makes me sick!
Your superior sense of entitlement is truly disgusting.
Its not 2004 anymore. You need to accept the fact that your demographic is no longer the dominant force in MMO's.
Gaming companies want to make money. More and more people are playing games as a form of entertainment.
I suggest you learn to accept it.
And you are a tool for bringing politics into this.
Hereticae Feb 22nd 2009 5:44PM
I think your right, society just caters to the lowest common denominator these days, but to be fair, its hardly Obamas world, hes laying the smack down on the banks he's helped, and hes only helping them so YOU dont lose all your money.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand:
The content is TOO easy, hard mode is okay, but TBH i would prefer another raid and have both more difficult, rather than just heroic hard mode ulduar or heroic easy mode ulduar. WoW might as well just not let you play, and just become a video that you watch and at the end of it you get free epics. Would be just as rewarding to me, and probably better for being drawn in etc.
Personally im in agreeance with Kanuris, the casuals just dont play as much. For me, my timeline of playing goes: Got WotLK > raced to 80 > did a tonne of heroics > cleared everything in a few weeks then did all achievements.
Nowadays, I only log in on raid days about 30 mins before raid to check stuff and make sure im ready. We only raid 2 days a week now because we clear everything in 2 nights, so really, am I a casual? If so, doesn't that point to the fact that if I can clear all content in 2 nights, that its easy epics?
Im not sure where blizz is going but if Ulduar is shite I may give up WoW and wait for the next gen MMO when things will actually be fresh, new, and different.
The Claw Feb 22nd 2009 5:36PM
My opinion, as someone who has cleared all current content (and yes that includes Sarth + 3 drakes), is that the current content is NOT actually too easy.
I see a lot of people saying how easy Naxx is compared to Kara. People talking about how they wiped on Moroes for a week but cruised through Naxx. Well, sorry, to me, wiping on Moroes for a week sounds a lot like wiping on Archavon for a week. If you do it, it means you're not raiders, you're still learning how to raid.
I think that since TBC introduced 10 man raiding, a LOT of people learned to raid for the first time in Kara. They had never learned to execute raid boss fights before and thus every fight was a challenge for them. Then, after a couple of years, they come to Naxx and yes they find it easy. Just like those of us who had raided pre-TBC found Kara easy. I'm not even saying I was a top-end raider pre-TBC, my guild was up to Twin Emps in AQ40 and only killed two bosses in the old 40-man Naxx. We were not "uber". But we cruised through Kara the way people have cruised through WotLK.
And why? Because this is INTRODUCTORY CONTENT, to ensure that new people can get up to speed with the new expansion. I don't know if we'll ever see something as hard as Sunwell again but I know we'll see raids that no pug will ever beat until they're level 90.
Sarth + 3D is an awesome challenge and frankly beating it was the greatest satisfaction I have gotten from a boss kill in all my years of WoW raiding. Anyone who whines about the content being too easy, but who hasn't got their Twilight Vanquisher title, has just proven themselves to be a lootwhore who isn't in it for the challenge.
Wolfssen Feb 22nd 2009 5:53PM
I'm actualy starting to wonder if all the talk of 'too easy' is just people being bored with WoW. Shock,horror and gasp, the game has been on the go for an age now, and I know people want to stay true to it and hold the banner, never leaving and crying heretic to any that do fall away, but seriously, Wrath was a great expansion and made me happy to see some new graphics and a twist on what Azeroth looked like with the Norse feel. But it certainly wasn't anything new in terms of gaming.
Plus with the addition on the Jedi Knight, sorry Death Knight (and anyone who played Galaxies will get that last joke) I'm getting the feeling we're being given everything a spoilt child wants, easy lewt for less work, two hitting anything that gets in our way in PvP, more sweets and staying up past our bed-time.
Well guys and gals, here comes the stomach ache. When you get it all how you like it, it starts to feel a bit hollow. Resting on the lorrels of achievements isn't content, it's just getting you to pat you're head and rub your tummy while you do the same thing twice.
AngryPanda Feb 22nd 2009 7:34PM
I think my biggest complaint of the new expansion is there just isn't enough content. Honestly, I'm glad I'm in a "Hardcore" raiding guild because I don't have the time to play casually. Being able to clear 25 naxx in 3 hours and then be done for the week is kind of nice as schooling is on my back gf agro etc. etc.
However, for people who enjoy playing this guild more than 3 hours a week (I used to :( ) I can see how this would be annoying. People who enjoy playing this game alot simply have nothing to do/farm or what ever, things that can even make their character better if they wanted to.
Not to mention, I find that simply re-hashing naxx and not creating a full new raid instance was just lazy and cheap on blizzards part.
Frankly, for people who saw naxx at 60, then did 10 man naxx, then finally did 25 man naxx, running naxx anymore would make me feel like shooting myself in the foot.
Finally, I don't care if they make content easy for everyone, I enjoy sarth 3d alot, and feel that hardmodes are a great way to let everyone see content. My only wish would be, PLEASE MAKE PLAYERS GEAR UP IN NAXX BEFORE ALLOWING THEM TO COMPLETE ULDUAR. normal instance gearing, heroic gearing, and 10 man naxx gearing all feel pointless when you can simply walk into 25 naxx and clear it with quest blues and epic 70 gear. (Yes, this means more gear check fights please).
tl;dr notes
Naxx is old
I'm excited for ulduar
I still love raiding
casuals should get to see the game but shouldnt get to run around in my hardcore gear.
10 mans should NOT be easymode.
Todd Feb 22nd 2009 7:43PM
All the needed to change from BC to WotLK to make the "casuals" happy was the 10 man access to 25 man content. The easy mode that has persisted since the pre WotLK patch is what is so terrible. Zero challenge until Heroics for anyone not a complete nublett was not the answer.
redraga Feb 22nd 2009 7:48PM
@ Fuseitana
If you're running Naxx every night then you're not casual. You're a sensible guy who understands that it's just a game, but not casual.
played Apr 15th 2009 6:59AM
IMO blizzard should simply jack up the difficulty of ulduar to black temple level, and do what the they did with alot of wrath fights, make them EXTREMELY FUN and exciting.
Ulduar should be doable with good enough gear, but skill should come into it, I mean I want it to be so hard that the most experienced raiders on the server, overestimate it and wipe on the first encounter, that should shut everyone up and bring WoW back into its glory days of having a difficult endgame.
Make raids accessible to everyone? just let the nooblets play in naxx while we destroy arthas.