Breakfast Topic: When to call it
by Zach Yonzon 
Feb 23rd 2009 at 8:00AM
Many times during our time playing this game, we've decided to call it. Usually in an instance, maybe a boss that's too hard to handle for our group at the time. In Battlegrounds, the equivalent would AFKing at some point where you know the game just isn't going anywhere (Warsong Gulch would be the likely culprit in those cases). I guess my question is when do you know when to stop? I've had experiences where 5-mans would have changes in their line-up just trying to down one boss -- when a player leaves in frustration, the others go to the public channels announcing "LF1M, last boss Heroic <insert dungeon here>".
But we have to stop sometime. When do you when that sometime is? After one wipe? Certainly not. Two? Three? I know we've wiped innumerable times on some progression bosses, only to end up calling it in order to continue another day. What is the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Axolotl Feb 23rd 2009 8:05AM
When too tired to continue would be the time to call it.
In general, people feel less tired when playing, so by the time they start feeling it, they're realy tired (and probably making mistakes because of it)
Jesse Feb 23rd 2009 8:14AM
when it becomes clear that your current group will be incapable of completing the encounter, whether through fatigue, boredom, inexperience, or incompetence, it's time to call it. Sometimes a single raider can be the difference between your seventh twilight mount and a night of 200 gold repair bills. part of your job as a raid leader is to determine:
1 what needs to change from what you've been doing to what you need to do to clear the encounter.
2 whether the group you have can make those changes
3 whether you can replace anyone who would prevent you from making those changes.
You call it when you don't have any way to down the boss at the time.
omenscourge Feb 23rd 2009 8:26AM
@ Jesse
^This.
Wipe count doesn't factor into the decision. If its clear that the boss can drop and people have the time and attention span you do another attempt.
If its clear the boss won't go down you call it, especially on farm content.
If its a progression boss and you know the boss won't go down, you keep the attempts going so everyone will learn the fight better. Even then after a couple wipes it will be time to throw in the towel.
Agelamer Feb 23rd 2009 10:03AM
I disagree with the 'you call it when its clear the boss wont go down' technique.
I know many kills my guild has had on Sarth 3D that happen right after 2-3 attempts of utter failure. If we had called it when things looked bleak, I doubt we would ever have gotten him down.
I would say this, you call it whenever you are scheduled to stop raiding, or barely after that if you are very close. Wipe all night if you have to, but don't stop at 10 when you are scheduled to go until 12.
Jesse Feb 23rd 2009 11:12AM
there's a difference between 2-3 wakeup wipes, and 2-3 "you seriously can't dodge a void zone?" wipes.
if you have raiders to replace the void zone zombies, you swap em out and keep going. if you can't swap out the people having a bad night, and they can't get it in gear, it's pointless to waste time that people could be spending with their families and gold that will have to be farmed to replace it.
Neyssa Feb 23rd 2009 8:07AM
I think a good indicator is that little red man on the right side of the monitor... I dont mind wiping when trying to learn new tactics, it usually depends on my current financial situation when to give up (how much gold I have for repair - I am always low on money).
Danta Feb 23rd 2009 9:40AM
We used to have a guy raid with us who was so worried about his repair bill that he would be looking for ways not to die, instead of looking for ways to up his DPS.
In fact, we once downed High King with him standing outside the instance. In the middle of the fight, he thought we were going to wipe and since the door was so close he ran outside so he wouldn't die. All because he didn't want to pay a repair bill.
We left him outside and never looked back. Now mind you he had other issues, like not bring pots or food to raids, but all of that is tied to not ever having any gold, so he had to find himself another guild and be their "boat anchor".
Wiping is part of raiding, repairing is part of wiping, ergo...if someone can't afford to repair, then they can't afford to raid.
But on the topic, we set a Raid ending time and stick to it unless we all agree to continue, then it takes a yes vote from everyone to continue, which means full raid buy in. If one person doesn't want to continue or is unable to continue, we don't continue. Set a time, stick to it, and kill bosses.
lightningjynx Feb 23rd 2009 8:10AM
This post makes me wonder what server you play on. The same thing happened to me last night, except I would be considered one of the new guys. /shrug I enjoy the group that broke me into 25 man content, and it just seemed like an off night last night. We'll see how things progress from there.
Alizar Feb 23rd 2009 9:01AM
I think the problem is most veteran raiders are bored. We were working on the 20 man achievements for naxx this week and had to run with 17-18 people 2 of the days.
Perlin Feb 23rd 2009 8:10AM
I'd say one of two moments:
- Make a fixed endtime for every raid, when you reach that simply stop. This also creates the nice addition of the 'Famous Last Attempts' that are sometimes the first kills.
- Once a number of attempts (2-3 in a row depending on your patience) seem to not gain momentum but seem to loose it more.
Have a 5 minute break and ask every raider to use that break to step away from the computer. Then try it again 2-3 times. Sometimes simply stepping away for a moment can refresh the raid more then anything.
If even after that it still goes bad, then call it.
that's my 2 copper at least.
Malkia Feb 23rd 2009 8:46AM
Breaktime is a good idea, we've never done it formally but I might suggest that to my guild leaders for future stuff.
WoWie Zowie Feb 23rd 2009 9:18AM
that sounds like my guild.
Gimmlette Feb 23rd 2009 11:14AM
This.
We're casual and with that frame of mind comes distinct limits on what we will and will not do within the bounds of raiding. It took some misfires to get people to understand that "casual" does not mean you bum pots or food off fellow raiders or show up at 60% durability. "Casual" means we don't raid every night nor do we raid for 4+ hours or until our eyes bleed.
We show up on time, ready to go. We raid for up to 3 hours. If we reach a point at which a boss or encounter, and let's face it, sometimes trash pulls can get the best of you, wipes us 3 times, we ask for people's opinions on whether they want to continue. If a raid is going well, we will ask when 3 hours approaches and the instance is not complete, whether they wish to push on or come back the next day.
We have fun but we're serious about learning fights and downing mobs/bosses. We are also mindful that our guild members are from all time zones in the US and Canada AND from Australia. A 3 hour raid can mean we end at midnight on the US East Coast or, to make sure our tank can stay because he's leaving at 10 EST, starting at 7 a.m. in Australia on a Monday morning.
So far, our approach works. Not everyone can make every raid so we try to vary when we run things so all guild members have the chance to see all content. We just don't think anyone benefits when the raid goes and goes and goes and the boss still won't die and you keep wiping at 5%. Most of the time, 3 strikes or 3 hours and we're out.
sephirah Feb 23rd 2009 8:14AM
When consecutive tries are getting worse than the previous ones and after a wipe more and more people starts to afk, taking more and more time to buff everyone...
Angus Feb 23rd 2009 8:15AM
"Okay folks. We're going to try this one more time, here's what we're going to try a little different."
Those words have been uttered before our first kill in 3 of the bosses in Hyjal, Najentus and Leotheras.
They have been uttered before 7 or 8 wipes as well.
You can feel the mood in the air, a mood of "this isn't going to work." If you can't get a positive notion to gel out of that, one of utter determination, you will not get a kill. Hearing that this is your last chance to make this right, your last attempt to break through and see new sparklies at your feet, sometimes is enough to get everyone over the hump.
Otherwise, it is a welcome relief.
A good raid leader can feel when the time to say those words is. There is no definitive time to do it. You just know from the lack of comments on vent, the feeling of frustration, and knowing your people's level of play. Some of the best raiders I have known have beat their heads on a boss for 3 or 4 days, at 2-3 hours a night on the same boss because they wanted her down. (Looking at you Vashj) Those same raiders have been ready to never see a boss after 3 attempts because the boss is frustrating and not worth it to them.
Nightlife Feb 23rd 2009 8:32AM
My Guild generally will raid till 11, then one or two more attempts. if we're on trash, we will generally stop since we have a flexible raid schedule and often raid every night.
overall, the raid leader, myself, and a few others are often furiously /t /r ing back and forth to decide if another attempt will be fruitful or not.
lack of DPS, not knowing the fight, too many casters, if its a raid comp issue, we'll generally call it after a few wipes unless there's a willing sub waiting in the wings.
-Night
Cedrich Feb 23rd 2009 8:28AM
We used to call it on progression bosses when we stopped seeing an improvement over the last try in each new attempt. Some rest, some revision of tactics, and we usually got it the next evening.
Amynna Feb 23rd 2009 8:35AM
A friend of mine has a rule that I adopted. When with a PUG, after 3 consecutive wipes, I'm out. That means if we wipe 3 times in the same spot, I'm done.
On a guild run, we keep at it until we decide it's just not possible, either because people are getting tired, group makeup, etc.
Graccus Feb 23rd 2009 8:35AM
You all know the last boss in Halls of Lightning
The well known Loken that everyone expirianced fears of.
I once managed to wipe 11 times just because i didn't want to quit and evetually "Called it for tonight" because trying a little more won't do anything good except paying alot of money for your Durability.
Shubb-Niggurath Feb 23rd 2009 8:39AM
Heh, we decided to call the raid yesterday after lots of wipe on Grobbulus. It's quite frustrating to leave when the strat is good, but not the group. We severely lacked DPS yesterday, I just hope we're not going to get bored by the big fat boy and that we'll finally down him. In all cases, I'm getting bored to corpse-camp Arachnid, Plague&Military quarters :p
We are a kind of casual EU-guild, meaning many of us have a big play time, but don't like the "hardcore raiding" state of mind. Furthermore, we raid with IG friend out of our guild and sometimes pugs, as we are not enough to complete a raid by ourselves.
Anyway, long time reader, first time poster, and sorry if my english may be bad. We french people, have many cheeses and wines, but not so good english classes ^^