Ghostcrawler on the success of "bring the player not the class"
by Amanda Miller 
Feb 27th 2009 at 9:30AM
You have heard Blizzard's motto for raiding in Wrath of the Lich King, "bring the player not the class." The intent is to steer away from strict raid composition and shake things up. Encounters are being designed so that no one single class is necessary, although the 25-man Razuvious fight currently requires at least one priest, preferably two or three, with at least one specced shadow.
Classes are being designed so that many necessary buffs, such as Replenishment, can be acquired through a variety of classes, rather than just one.
The rigidity that came with Sunwell is one of the reasons that development has taken this direction. The motto sparked high hopes, and not all players are convinced that the implementation has been successful.
In response, Ghostcrawler points out that just like everything in WoW, it is a process. It's not going to be perfect, because things are always changing.
In fact, the development teams learn a lot about class balance by watching us play the content. GC mentions that they expect Ulduar, specifically in heroic mode, "to shine a much harsher light on class balance."
This equates to admitting that they do not intent for content to be perfect on first release. It should work bug-free, ideally, and be balanced fairly well, but new raid content liek Ulduar is also an opportunity for study.
GC expects "great debates" about the necessity of various buffs, debuffs, classes and specs, and while it will be "interesting, perhaps a bit rocky...we're also prepared to make whatever changes we need to make."
I don't know about you, but this has renewed my excitement for patch 3.1 and Ulduar's release. This sounds tough, challenging, and our own performances will directly affect class balance and raid composition.
On the bright side, Ghostcrawler confirms that there is no current trend where certain classes are being shunned out of raid slots, and that classes that used to be ignored by raid leaders in BC are now working competitively alongside their raidmates.
Finally, he reminds us that the motto "does not mean class is irrelevant." What it does allow for is increased flexibility and creativity. Raid composition shouldn't be an exact science.
Patch 3.1 brings us Ulduar, dual specs, significant changes to all the classes, and more! We've got you covered from top to bottom with our Guide to Patch 3.1.Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding, Classes, Wrath of the Lich King, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Alaror Feb 27th 2009 4:38PM
This is the grammar police. We've got a report that you've spelled "like" as "liek". We're going to have to ask you to change that immediately before any more damage is done.
And maybe first =P
Preparing to be flamed in 3... 2... 1...
Hansbo Feb 27th 2009 6:12PM
New record, someone thought they were first when actually 56 posts was managed to be posted before him.
Well done, sir. Well done.
eROKv Feb 27th 2009 9:39AM
i dunno if you can say they have been at all successful when my mage can go 1k dps either way, depending on the classes present in the raid.
miked Feb 27th 2009 10:12AM
Your DPS is irrelevant. Does your group kill the dragon? That's all GC cares about in terms of PVE class balance. As long as a certain class comp isn't *required* to beat the boss, they've done what they set out to do.
bub Feb 27th 2009 10:15AM
Ah you’re not the brightest spark are you?
The problem was getting the buffs needed for that extra 1000 dps was class specific in BC.
It is now easy to get all raid buffs such that "bring the player" can be called a success, which is what the thread is all about.
Kakistocracy Feb 27th 2009 1:34PM
They did spread out who can give the buffs, like Replenishment, which they compared in importance to binging healers on the raid, then said that you can do the raids without if you are a bit higher gear level than the raid.
So... Does blizz not understand how analogies work, or will we see raids of Nax with just a couple tanks then all dps once T8 comes out?
max_bmw Feb 27th 2009 2:27PM
As I posted in another thread the other day - GCs contradictory statements in a single post.
"Players often wish for a buff so awesome that it guarantees them a raid slot. But that is exactly the mentality we were trying to prevent with our big buff and debuff overhaul."
"The new model is designed to let you get as many buffs as you want through several different configurations of classes and specs and still have some slots left over to bring who you want."
From the post this atricle is drawn from-
"What it does mean is that you have a ton more flexibility than in Sunwell over which classes you bring and you should be able to get all of the buffs you need (and yes Replenishment is one of those) and still have enough free slots to double up on whatever classes you want or just bring the guys you like to raid with."
There you have it, from the man himself. It is not the oft touted "bring the player, not the class", but rather, bring these mandatory class/specs and maybe you have a spot left over for the player you want to bring.
I'm not saying that we should be able to bring all rouges and locks and be ok, just that "bring the player, not the class" is not an accurate description of reality.
"We aren't seeing anyone sidelined on raids or being stacked in raids..."
Really??? Once again, I don't know what data Blizzard is looking at or how they draw their conclusions that certain classes are not being shunned or stacked, all i can do is assess the situation based on my experiences on my server. Those are:
-DKs are being shunned (almost all you see in trade is "LF5M 25 man Naxx - NO DKs" then join the group to find no DKs in the group to begin with. I believe this is due to the 5 FotM ret pallies not wanting to have more competition for loot and that no one really views and of the DK buffs as necessary.)
-Rogues are being shunned (mainly because they are putting out sub par dps and have nothing to offer the group as a whole)
-Warlocks might be shunned (I don't see many locks in raids nowadays, however I don't know if that is due to a lack of raid buffs or that many locks rerolled DKs and most of the rest rerolled something else. While I don't see a real bias against locks, I don't see raids actively seeking them either.)
-Paladins are being stacked (I have seen, on average, raids being comprised of 30% paladins. Buffs, auras, replenishment, great tanks, great dps, and insane glyphed healing... if it weren't for loot I wouldn't be surpirsed to see all pally raids.)
Eisengel Feb 27th 2009 3:04PM
@max_bmw
These statements actually are not at all contradictory, they're just in different contexts.
What I think the dev team wants is an environment where there are some buffs that are just great... so great that pretty much every raid should have them, then there are other buffs that are good, but not good enough to make them so good that they severely affect the raid if the raid doesn't have them. The difference is a boss encounter needs to be designed presuming the great buffs, since they affect a group so much, but not necessarily the good buffs.
Now if a boss is designed with a specific buff in mind, then that buff approaches 'required' status. It would be hard to beat the boss without it.
So, let me go through these quotes:
1st quote:
Yes, it would be nice if you had some insane, killer buff, only you. So that way your raid would always have to take you, no matter what. That makes for trouble though since you effectively wield massive power over the raid that isn't based on how well you play, but what button you clicked on character creation. It does feel nice to be indispensable and unique, but that doesn't make for good game design... so no buff should be completely necessary. GC does say there buffs that are 'required', but that's only a way of saying they're so good, that they affect the design of an encounter. No player buff should ever be required to beat a boss, and no player buff so be so great that you always need it no matter what.
2nd quote:
It should now be possible to bring a wide array of different classes and specs and still get all the buffs you want since so many of them are equivalent and overwrite each other. This way the really good buffs are more common so no one gets benched just because they happen to want to play a certain class.
3rd quote:
Let me paraphrase this quote... 'Replenishment is a really good buff, it is really useful, and we design encounters presuming your mana-users have it. We also gave more of these really good buffs to multiple classes and specs so that it is more likely you'll have them so while maybe one person may want to respec to bring replenishment, at least they're not getting benched for a PuG player that does'
Here is an alternate suggestion... since you seem to dislike how buffs are handled... how about Blizz just drops all of them. Out. Gone. Now.. did the list of reasons to bring certain classes get longer or shorter?
DK:
Personally I have not seen DKs being shunned. That's just me on my server though... in fact, sometimes my guild's Naxx-10 raids have up to 3 DKs in them. My guess would be though that the DK class is new, and cool, and there are lot of Deth Kaniggits that are really, really bad... making PuGs call for non-DKs.
Rogues:
I definitely agree here. Actually I think the Rogue class really just needs a reworking, a lot like Paladin. The problem is Rogue was always too strong in PvP and often too strong in PvE. Steadily their PvE use has fallen off while their ability in PvP has just recently started to erode... so really, only recently, has Blizz ever been in a position where they kinda needed to buff Rogues. This likely won't be fixed any time soon. I've never really liked the way Blizz has handled Rogues from day 1, but I'm not a Blizz dev.. so... too bad for me. Blizz has posted they are concerned about Rogues.
Warlocks:
I don't think so. Blizz has been very conscientious with locks. I've seen them doing very nice DPS and they now have their uber summon. Demo needs some help and Destro I think could use some tweaks, but Blizz has posted saying this already, and I've seen locks filling their ranged DPS role just fine.
Paladins:
Yes. Paladins are way, way too useful I think. Paladins quite possibly border on the edge of 'way too good'.
max_bmw Feb 27th 2009 8:54PM
Actually, I don't have a problem with the buff system as a whole, though I wouldn't say there aren't things that could be improved.
While those statements are contradictory in that GC said that they wanted to get away from buffs that were so important that it guaranteed a raid spot while simultaneously adding a new buff (replenishment) that he has said is mandatory as all current encounters are designed expecting your raid to have it, I think the point I was trying to illustrate was missed.
The point those quotes were meant to demonstrate is that as much as people like to say/think/wish/demand (as evidenced by the title of this post) that "bring the player not the class" is the new law of Azeroth, it simply is not the case.
As for the classes, DKs are given the shaft on my server - random pug, organized regular pug, guild run - it doesn't seem to matter. In my guild run, we have a DK tank and we aren't looking for any other DKs. While there is certainly an apprehension concerning most DK's ability to preform in the roll they join for (there are so many DKs saying they can tank and haven't the slightest clue what they are doing), the flip side of that coin is that the good DKs aren't getting a chance to prove themselves due to an overabundance of "established" (pally/war) dps plate.
As far as warlocks go, yes, they fill the ranged dps role beautifully. My lock is always high on the meters if not leading. As I said, I don't know if they are being shunned, just that I don't see many in raids. I don't know if that is because raid leaders feel they only need one lock to provide utility, or that in this new world of DKs and ret pallys there just aren't many locks left.
The point of those class evaluations was that when I see the lead developer state that "We aren't seeing anyone sidelined on raids or being stacked in raids...", I have to look at the situation on my server, and come to the conclusion they are missing some portion of the reality what is happening.
*Sarcasm inc* Perhaps on other servers 25% of the population didn't roll ret and 75% of the warrior tanks didn't go dps and 95% of the feral tanks didn't go resto. Maybe elsewhere everyone loves DKs, classes are balanced and Danita Stonemantle, the mysterious vault manager of Ironforge, gleefully distributes everyone's Gnomish bailout gold. If this sounds like your server, please let me know so I may transfer immediately.
D33Zy Feb 27th 2009 9:41AM
In fact, the development teams learn a lot about class balance by watching us play the content. GC mentions that they expect Ulduar, specifically in heroic mode, "to shine a much harsher light on class balance."
This equates to admitting that they do not intent for content to be perfect on first release. It should work bug-free, ideally, and be balanced fairly well, but new raid content liek Ulduar is also an opportunity for study.
this to me means Blizzards more less using wow to gain expreince still since they have no way to predict wtf is going to happen which is kinda funny shouldnt they be testing theyre project internally before release then ptr it and have some more confidence in it then decent? in all honestlty this new way blizzards been developing the last couples years is bullshit i'm sick of paying to play a giant beta. this is why im done with MMO's for now hopefully Blizzard will take all the experience from this and actually devieler some good old polished content.
Gnosh Feb 27th 2009 9:47AM
There's no simulation software I can think of that can predict the ideas, problem-solving and ingenuity of 11 million people.
Players, given enough time, will find ways to game the system. Unless you're prepared to wait till 2012 for ulduar, they're going to be doing class-balance testing on live.
Also, L2Grammar. Jesus.
Hanako Feb 27th 2009 9:54AM
"This equates to admitting that they do not intent for content to be perfect on first release. It should work bug-free, ideally, and be balanced fairly well, but new raid content liek Ulduar is also an opportunity for study."
Other than the obvious spelling issues, I don't take the same point away from GC's statement. PC software is notorious for the "ship it now, patch it later," but I think the statement Blizzard doesn't *intend* for content to be perfect on first release is an oversimplification.
As for D33Zy: Saying it's all one big beta is just being childish.
Not subscribing to fanboyism, but I believe Blizzard take a more realist vice idealist stance. As with any system, changes can be amplified or dampened unexpectedly, and I take blue posts more as, "things work like how we want them to now. Ulduar/3.1 might change that depending on fights/gear," and those will in turn need incremental adjustments.
I think they *do* publish content with the intent of it being as good as it can get, but an internal check of maybe a hundred people at most (who are often so mired in the development they have difficulty taking a fresh look) compared to thousands of people who are willing to datamine and look for exploits for free before the patch is "official"? Why would you not do the latter?
If you don't like PTR's, then don't do them.
kittymelter Feb 27th 2009 10:11AM
Did it not occur to you that the size of these projects require loads of testing, more testing than any PTR could possibly provide, let alone pre-PTR release?? Do you not realise that the ultimate testing period for any new content is when this stuff actually goes live?
You assume you know everything that is going on at Blizzard atm. I'm assuming that most of their dev team are on Uldar right now, but when this goes live the bulk of the team will be looking at patch 3.2, leaving probably a few to iron out the bugs found in live releases. My assumptions here are most likely wrong, but I reckon closer to the truth than yours.
However I do agree with your comment about paying for an eternal Beta - not ideal. I've also questioned that maybe Blizzard might be slacking a bit because we are seeing a large number of bugs coming out, more than usual it seems. However I'm not a games designer. The mechanics they are creating are pretty new tbh. There are no games before this one for them to look to for ideas and solutions to bugs. I consider that some of this stuff is cutting edge and yeah, some bugs will make it to live. Maybe more than usual recently so ok, little poke at Blizzard to step up a bit more, but you can't expect live releases to be 100% bug free.
Viper007Bond Feb 27th 2009 9:42AM
I just wish each class would bring a little more to the table. A class / number shouldn't be required, but having at least one of each class would be nice.
As a Warlock, I feel like I'm only there for the summoning stone and maybe the healthstone.
Alizar Feb 27th 2009 10:01AM
I never have a problem topping the meters especially on Maly and Patchwerk.
However, I would argue that my raid utility takes a sideline because of the current affliction point allocation. That being said they did a wonderful job fixing this in 3.1, now I can provide the same DPS and devote points to talents like improved HS.
vanye111 Feb 27th 2009 10:30AM
Which is more than my gf's rogue brings to the table. She brings DPS, and that's all. Well, that and Expose Armor, which until recently wasn't needed, but with one guy changing from his warrior to his DK as his raiding toon (10 man) we no longer have any sunders available. Its not much, but it's something.
Mindreaver Feb 27th 2009 9:42AM
Honestly, GC is a joke when he says people aren't being shunned.
I don't bring rogues to a progression raid, when I can avoid it. They are WORTHLESS atm. A dk does more damage, and has enough tanking ability to save a wipe in an emergency. No shortage of them either. I could also bring a feral druid. Battle rez and bear form to save the day.
Rogues offer no group buffs. They offer dps at the same level as other classes that do. They are melee, which means they have a lot of strikes against them in most boss fights.
mezpin Feb 27th 2009 9:46AM
GC did mention specifically that rogues and arms warriors are most at risk of being sidelined right now. Although it sounds like they want to work on arms and buff rogues.
Amynna Feb 27th 2009 9:57AM
Exactly. At least Warlocks have SOMETHING to offer, as well as being ranged. A warlock who can do the Safety Dance perfectly is insanely useful as well, as they can DoT Heigan up as they run, helping to bring him down that much faster (we have him die on the platform fairly frequently, as one of our Warlocks never dies in there, and has him lit up the entire time she's running).
As a rogue, I bring one "buff" to the table, Tricks of the Trade. 15% damage increase to the target, but also giving them threat. Everything else I have is duplicated by at least one other class, and they bring OTHER utility as well.
At least before they nerfed Evasion, I could tank a boss for a few seconds if they were down to 1%. Back in BC, there were a number of boss fights that would end with only me and the healers up, because I'd pop evasion and burn off those last few hit points.
I'm lucky tho, I'm in a guild that's more worried about us having a good time than being server first or anything like that, so I get to raid pretty constantly.
Clarick Feb 27th 2009 9:59AM
Ahh...there's that attitude. I don't play a rogue but I feel for the thousands you just instulted. Let's not forget two very basic facts people. 1)WoW is a GAME that is for FUN. and 2) Behind everyone of those toons/classes are people you just shunned because they don't fit that exact class requirement you thought up (or someone else thought it up and you figure its the law to follow that class breakdown)
It's this simple...for years hardcore players have been going to raids and saying "I need this specific class with these specific stats and they better have X number of raid experience" and IMO SOME OF YOU TAKE THIS GAME WAY TOO SERIOUSLY!
I had people talling me that my survival hunter was useless...it took going on a raid and being able to trap like a mofo to prove otherwise. You don't know the skill level of the person playing that rogue so stop judging