The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Scarce Change on the PTR

Yesterday saw me still without PTR access, followed by a massive cable outage and some computer problems that kept me offline until very late. Logging onto my Horde server (my alliance server was already dead thanks to it being on east coast time, plus I generally prefer Horde now anyway) I found myself needed to tank an Obsidian Sanctum run, which went fine. Then, I was needed to DPS in Naxx, so I respecced, but mistaken specced fury because I respec on autopilot now. So after the raid I had to respec back to arms. So basically, I dropped 150g to raid yesterday. You could argue that were I not an idiot I could have saved myself 50 gold.
So for that reason alone, even with the big, big nerfs to fury, I want 3.1 to get here.
Let's start the day with a fun quote from Ghostcrawler:
"Fury warriors who think their dps will be too low after this change in PvE are probably comparing themselves to classes or specs with inflated dps who are also being brought down (even after the Deep Wounds fix). If you are worried about the PvP ramifications, I think we can probably agree that a 10% swing in dps is not what is going to determine whether warriors are viable in Arenas or not."
Yeah, we can agree on that. People would have to be taking warriors to arenas in order for us to determine if warriors were viable in arenas or not. Since they are not... I guess lowering warrior DPS bt 10% (as Ghostcrawler has just admitted these changes intend) doesn't really matter. When no one brings your class anyway, it's unimportant if it gets nerfed or not. Good point, GC. Very good point.
So for that reason alone, even with the big, big nerfs to fury, I want 3.1 to get here.
Let's start the day with a fun quote from Ghostcrawler:
"Fury warriors who think their dps will be too low after this change in PvE are probably comparing themselves to classes or specs with inflated dps who are also being brought down (even after the Deep Wounds fix). If you are worried about the PvP ramifications, I think we can probably agree that a 10% swing in dps is not what is going to determine whether warriors are viable in Arenas or not."
Yeah, we can agree on that. People would have to be taking warriors to arenas in order for us to determine if warriors were viable in arenas or not. Since they are not... I guess lowering warrior DPS bt 10% (as Ghostcrawler has just admitted these changes intend) doesn't really matter. When no one brings your class anyway, it's unimportant if it gets nerfed or not. Good point, GC. Very good point.
Generally speaking, as a warrior who now raids as prot, arms and fury depending on the fight, the needs of the raid and the particular warrior I'm playing (my human is almost exclusively fury, my tauren switches around a lot more) yeah, I compare myself to the other DPS classes. I compare other warriors with better gear and probably better skills (I won't bullshit you, I'll always be a better tank than I am DPS, last night I decisively proved that to myself by stepping back into tanking and owning it like I was Saurfang and it was anything Saurfang decided he owned while as DPS I'm solid but unremarkable) to other DPS as well. I'm not seeing warriors decisively owning all other DPS, not even close. Competitive, yes. Some fights a warrior does insanely well on. Even after the Deep Wounds fix I love Thaddius, I'm a huge fan of Loatheb, and Patchwerk is fun for DPS melee.
I predict now that the 10% nerf is going to mess up fury but good when combined with the changes to certain glyphs. I'm specifically thinking of the change to the Glyph of Heroic Strike. Right now, HS for a fury warrior is something you use in-between cooldowns on your high damage abilities like Bloodthirst, Whirlwind and any Slams you can use instantly due to Bloodsurge. With the glyph, HS isn't a rage dump for fury so much as it is a cooling off ability, a "I have rage and nothing else is lit up I might as well play lottery with my glyph" because when you get lucky and crit with HS, you get 10 rage back. The synergy of this glyph for both tanking (especially when combined with the Glyph of Revenge, which gives you a free HS after every Revenge) and DPSing cannot be overstated. Once you have a 30% critical strike rate or better (my human floats around 38% unbuffed right now, my tauren 32%) then this glyph is a reliable source of rage for you. A typical fury rotation of WW - BT - WW with instant slams falling where they may can easily chew up a lot of rage.
We're being told right now that Ulduar will reveal a lot about class balance. I hope it does. For starters, I hope the myth of the unstoppable DPS warrior gets destroyed once and for all. It's been around since Blackwing Lair. There are always going to be fights where warrior DPS is very good... anything where rage generation is smooth and we don't have to move around like meth addicted howler monkeys while the floor randomly explodes over and over again, our DPS is pretty excellent and barring a total evisceration of the class, will always be. Rage is what it is.
I guarantee you that even with this nerf, a warrior will out DPS a 'pure' class in any condition where rage is readily accessible and melee doesn't have to move away every five seconds unless they nerf the class so badly that it is completely unplayable. I guarantee you that this change will not prevent warriors from out DPSing you in Ulduar, 'pure' classes. I put pure in sarcasm quotes here because warriors are as pure as it gets. No poisons for nature damage. No holy damage, No shadow or frost damage. Warriors are the single most purely physical class in the game. Armor affects everything we do. And armor is being globally reduced, across the board, on bosses to make up for the Sunder Armor change. So in 3.1, when warriors get their 10% damage reduction, the one thing that mitigates effectively all of our damage is also being reduced. No, in the end, as gear improves we will once again see warriors beating 'pure' classes at DPS, it's inevitable. Who does the change really hurt?
It will again be a kick in the teeth to leveling warriors who do not have the gear, who will step into five mans at 80 and provide insignificant DPS in their leveling greens and blues, and won't get another party because they believe they suck. It's going to be a kick in the nuts to those who try and run Wintergrasp at 77 with their blue quest axe from Zul'Drak and get stomped even harder. To those players: it's not you. It's whining raiders who put a 10% DPS tax on everything you do. It's developers who think it is fine if you can't DPS as much in PvP because it won't make or break your PvP viability when you're already pretty much at the bottom of the barrel. To that player, please don't lose heart. It will get better. These things have a tendency to swing up and down. They've tried to put various penalties on Titan's Grip in the past and have always failed, because the penalties are too severe for anyone not in the best gear possible, and that's no different now.
I have hopes they will yet find a way to bring Titan's Grip into line so that it doesn't really mess up leveling warriors while still giving a benefit to DPS. I also have a great deal of hope that they'll bring arms DPS up. I once jokingly suggested that they make Titan's Grip baseline for all warriors so that warriors effectively, as a class, no longer use 1h weapons for anything and that way you can balance the entire class around the idea that both arms and fury will DW 2h weapons while prot would tank with a 2h weapon and a shield. Sure, we'd lose polearms entirely. But polearms haven't really been thought off for warriors in a while, they're such an afterthought that they're part of another weapon's specialization in arms anyway.
I used to have this idea with my tongue in my cheek. Now, I'm actually serious about it. The problem with TG is that it is the best 51 point talent in the game, in a tree full of the worst talents in the game. Everything in fury is basically there at this point to get you to Titan's Grip. So not only do other classes compare their 51 point talents to it (they don't compare the other fifty points of talents they took, of course) but fury is obligated to take it. Why would you go 50 points in fury and stop? So my former joke is now a serious suggestions: make TG baseline.
Make it baseline and you can rebalance the entire class around two hand weapons and all the trees and talents can assume they're there and we can finally have warriors scaling properly. It would be more work in the here and now to get it done, and far far less work overall. Had this been done in the beta warriors could be done now. And frankly, based on the scarce attention and balancing we get, clearly they want to be working on the classes they find more exciting, so let's stop with the constant fiddling and make a real change to warriors. (Plus, then you can make more real tanking 2h weapons because both warriors and DK's would be using them. Make them maces and druids can use them too. Three out of four tanks would want them. Win for everyone.) You could lower wholesale coefficients and all sorts of abilities knowing that the punch of TG would make up for it, redistributing warrior DPS across the board in an even manner rather than just whacking 10% off of the top on one spec. You could bring arms and fury into parity by simply ensuring that their various talents were much closer in utility and power without having to try and make them too alike in effect.
I should reassure the readers who think I've gone mad: this won't happen, and I don't expect it would. I expect the developers (who do know more about the game and how it works than I do) have good reasons for not wanting to have to come up with a new 51 point talent for fury, or balance protection around the idea of them waving an enormous stat stick in their main hand. But I have made the suggestion, and I do not recant it. Make TG baseline. Do the work now to balance all three trees against themselves and the other classes. Because if you don't do the work now, you're going to be doing it every patch just like this one.
Next week, who knows, maybe my PTR transfers will be complete.
Filed under: Warrior, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, News items, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Invictus Feb 27th 2009 2:19PM
Your post is passioned, but seems a little biased, obviously since you play warriors so much.
For sure warrior viability in arenas need to be improved, since they are the least represented class in certain brackets.
Again, part of the problem is balancing PvE vs. PvP. They should look into giving warriors more counters if they are going to nerf their DPS.
However, part of your complaints don't really make any sense and seem like just QQ......you are complaining about lvl 77 warriors getting ROFLstomped in Wintersgrasp? Really? OF COURSE THEY ARE. Any level 77 is going to get trounced by a bunch of 80s, not just warriors. If they aren't, then you can legitimately say the class is OP.
DraconisXC Feb 27th 2009 5:00PM
QQ is only QQ if there's no constructive feedback given. He offered what he felt was a viable work-around for the issues he complained about, so I think I would file this under "Frustrated Griping That Has Been Given a Lot of Thought," more than QQ.
neko Feb 27th 2009 7:36PM
rofl he said the axe is level 77 not himself
he is talking about the one you get from the ampiatheatre whichc happens to be the best till 80 and past it of you cant grind rep or get into any raids which he then mentions because warriors dps is "supposedly" shit...
im not mcuh of a fan of warriors but they really do neeed a buff to some of the talents or like someone else said a counter or two
DragonFireKai Feb 27th 2009 8:20PM
Actually, what he said was...
"It's going to be a kick in the nuts to those who try and run Wintergrasp at 77 with their blue quest axe from Zul'Drak and get stomped even harder."
Run wintergrasp at 77. That's the warrior he's talking about. And to be honest, If you're not lvl 80 and in at least naxx 10 equivilent gear, you're probably gonna get curbstomped by some dedicated PvPer in a full set of PvP epics. That's the nature of the beast in WG.
A1CYancy Feb 28th 2009 9:41AM
It's obvious you don't play warriors, or if you do, you're fortunate enough to have a good guild. What he's talking about isn't getting waffle stomped in WG at 77. He's talking about what happened to warriors preLK. Warrriors have a guild dependency. It's like they were made to be an alt class. You couldn't run 5 mans pre LK. Fury couldn't because fury DPS was a suckfest and Prot couldn't because it was so single target based. And before you idiots jump on me about "who cares! Raids need single target. Blah blah blah." We aren't ALL in higher end guilds. There's a lot of players who play that can't devote their time to busy raid schedules. Therefore they have to endure painful 5 mans until they are so well geared they can pug into raids. Therefore, they can't be carried up to raids. I was fury pre LK and switched to prot so I could atleast get a group that couldn't find a tank otherwise. I know exactly what Rossi means. The severe gear dependency means everyone but high end raiders get the shaft.
It's not QQ. Just a group of people who are under represented. tired of getting walked on.
dps warr Mar 5th 2009 8:07AM
well you can try beating an well played, lvl 77 arcane mage with a lvl 80 warrior. See how that turns out and let me know. I tell you...you will just feel bad at the end and relog your DK if you want to do some PvP.
xenocider Feb 27th 2009 2:22PM
If you think that the 10% damage reduction is going to be a 10% dps reduction you are sorely mistaken. I'm on the PTR with my warrior and it is much more than that. If blizzard wants to alter our dps then they should not do it in the 51 point talent, the 5 points we spend before TG are completely nullified by the 10% loss of damage that would come with TG. On heroic test dummies with a melee group debuffing it on both ptr and test realms my dps went from 3k to around 2. thats a 33% decrease, tell me thats what blizzard intended and i may just have to reroll because its entirely crap.
rplido Feb 27th 2009 2:22PM
You know, I never thought about making TG baseline, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. It would certainly allow for a lot more creativity in our talent trees, and we wouldn't quite have to be forced into a cookie-cutter Fury spec as much as we are now. DKs would be happy to see better tanking 2h options as well...Druids to some extent but since they don't need to stack +defense there may be a different ideal itemization for them anyway.
Snoots Feb 27th 2009 2:23PM
Agreed, all of it.
DrPestilence Feb 27th 2009 2:25PM
That would be so fun. : )
Stone_Rhino Feb 27th 2009 2:28PM
"When no one brings your class anyway, it's unimportant if it gets nerfed or not. Good point, GC. Very good point."
Yeah.. you should go talk to warlocks then.
Last in Arenas, and just had their PVE spec nerfed 1400 dps as a thank you from blizzard for their $15 a month.
Jessierockeron Feb 28th 2009 5:52PM
This article is about warriors.
Conack Feb 27th 2009 3:01PM
People are underestimating the HS Glyph change (nerf) completely. Take a look at your latest WWS, how much rage was gained due to the glyph?
It's a game breaker, nevermind the 10% nerf to TG Warriors. Arms isn't even remotely viable atm. If this patch goes through as is, DPS warriors will be in the mid-bottom of the DPS charts - without doubt. Why?
The only reason i can think of is to bring Fury & Arms' DPS about even and then buff something (like Deep Wounds?) which will benefit both about the same and bring them in line with the rest of the classes.
I'm banking on the fact that Blizzard hasn't announced the second change yet. If not and they only do these two nerfs, then DPS Warriors are obsolete until the next patch/hotfix.
jtrain Feb 27th 2009 2:36PM
This is a great idea.
Warriors scale better w/ gear than any other class, but that also means that unless we're rocking best-in-slot, we're somewhat behind. i think making TG baseline would go a long way to evening out the effectiveness of warriors that just dinged 80 to those that are geared up.
I also think you may be over-estimating how much work this would really take. Blizzard is full of very talented, capable people. I have no doubt they could come up with an interesting new 51-pt fury talent, and the rest of the overhaul could be accomplished by playing with coefficients.
Making TG baseline isn't as crazy as you think.
Clint Feb 27th 2009 4:41PM
Hmm, idk, the developers at blizzard are people like you and me. They are gamers that have a kickass job. Sure they did some schoolin' to get there, but they aren't geniuses.
It would be a lot of work to rebalance ALL the trees around a baseline TG. I think it could work. Seriously. But Rossi is correct in saying it won't happen.
I know we are -promised- changes for 3.1. But as time continues to slip by it seems that warriors are the black sheep that Blizz doesn't want to address. Time will tell.
At least as prot I'm second best at all my tanking duties.
Michael Feb 27th 2009 2:37PM
Wow. No bias whatsoever.
"I guarantee you that even with this nerf, a warrior will out DPS a 'pure' class in any condition where rage is readily accessible "
Yet you bitch and moan about a nerf.
STFU and take it like a man.
Clevins Feb 27th 2009 2:48PM
My thought exactly. You have no more issues with melee dps than a rogue (aside from threat dumps) and yet you think you should be able to outdps them... and then tank.
Whine more. Please. Your tears amuse me.
parah Feb 27th 2009 3:13PM
This is probably actually referring to gimmick fights such as Thaddius where our rage can actually be full all of the time due to some buffs given by the fight.
The statement, I believe, is intended to mean if the fight allowed us to actually have a full rage bar and never move, neither of which is very common.
Angus Feb 27th 2009 5:53PM
In fights where they have infinite resources to use to destroy the target they WILL demolish the #2 person. This is the point he is making.
People say that warriors are OP because they see that fight and things like Patchwerk and think that warriors do this all the time. They ignore the warriors DPS on Heigan being lower than everyone else though.
In mobile fights or one where there is a move that forces melee out, they do very poorly.
The QQ is about people complaining about warrior DPS but happening to forget this fact and acting like Thaddius or Loetheb are the norm.
Sporkstabber Feb 27th 2009 2:38PM
I bask in the white hot intensity of your heated remonstrance.
It's a good feeling