[1.Local]: The 3 Bears -- too easy, too hard or just right?
by Lisa Poisso 
Feb 28th 2009 at 5:00PM
Reader comments – ahh, yes, the juicy goodness following a meaty post. [1.Local] ducks past the swinging doors to see what readers have been chatting about in the back room over the past week.
Until next week!
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Can you compete with a DK? We've all heard the scuttle about how overpowered Death Knights are. Just how bad is it, really? "I know this may sound a little bit inflammatory -- heck, even a lot -- but keep with me, mkay?," requests Taladan. "The current problem with DKs is that you don't need to understand the class to play well. Take, for example, Paladins: Yes, we wear plate; yes, we have high mitigation; yes, we can heal ourselves. And, yet, people need to understand the class to play well: Bubble will cut your Wrath; Flash of Light/Holy Light different manage usage, timing (which is important if there is a Rogue kicking you around), healing effectiveness; how to 'restart' the combat when you do something wrong ... that kind of stuff. "DKs, currently, require none of this. Just jump there with your Blood Aura and blow your runes and runic power. If you have the proper gear, your damage should be pretty high, your mitigation will be high and, contrary to every other class in the game, you don't need to directly worry about your health, 'cause all that damage will turn into healing -- and you don't even need to stop hitting someone to heal yourself." Can you relate? kabshiel could: "I royally suck at PVP, but I actually do decently well on my DK. That's a red flag right there." |
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How easy is too easy? What type of player is today's WoW tuned for? Has WoW too easy? Are hard modes rewarding? Which is more challenging, 25-man or 10-man? Should either be? Player views tend to be polarized. This reader, however, thought differently: "At present, the game isn't tuned for the casuals OR the hardcore," notes Kuri. "At the moment, it's tuned for the people who play a little bit of everything and aren't particularly interested in anything. The super-casual gamers. The ones who have a little time, so they do a daily or two, see a PuG forming, join in and do raids. "No, raids aren't for true elitists, but they should at least be for raiders. It's the end game. There has to be something. At present, it feels like there won't be another expansion, and Blizzard is almost done with the WoW project. They can't really be bothered to keep up balance anymore." Sounds like at least one player who feels somewhat lost in the game's evolving landscape. Where do you fit in? |
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Are disenchanters getting robbed by rolls? Oy, here's an ancient debate that's gotten revived: should enchanters get rights to unused loot drops? fauxgt4 offers up a fresh proposal: "There is a simple solution to this problem, I think. I have a macro: '/p This is a group run. We share things as a group. I will shard any drops not needed, and we can roll on them. However, any ore, herb, or skin that is obtained during this run will also be rolled on.' "It's that easy. If someone refuses to share, point out the only reason they made it that far in the dungeon was because of the group, so we all have an equal right to it. If they won't let other roll on it, I will either remove them from group, or leave the group myself. It keeps it easy and fair for everyone." Is this situation even an issue for your groups anymore? |
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Bring the player, not the class: a success? In more new paradigm discussions, Zerokku wondered about the balance between 10-man and 25-man raiding: "I'm really hoping the comment on heroic mode – 'to shine a much harsher light on class balance" -- turns out to be true. It's one of the things that bothers me about the removal of the Proto-Drakes as achievement rewards. People who raid only 10-mans will effectively never be able to get these rewards, as long as 10-man hard modes are tuned with 25-man gear in mind. "25-man gear makes it easier to complete 10-man achievements. The difference isn't huge. but it's large enough. When 10-man Sarth + 3D is rare, even in a decked-out 25-man raid guild, there's a balance problem, in my opinion. Admittedly on the other hand, if they tuned it lower, then the 10-man achievements could become trivial for those decked out in higher iLevel gear from heroic raids. It's a thin line to tread, and I hope they can manage it properly. =/" Do you feel that recent changes to the game have opened or closed doors for your class and how you'd like to play it? |
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Piklez Feb 28th 2009 5:10PM
Keep in mind that the reason a DK is so overpowered is because it is a hero class. Everyone has a death knight, and everyone can use a death knight, should they choose. That's why a DK is so overpowered: it's a hero class, everyone has one.
In that light, they are really freaking overpowered. When mine hits 80, I'm gonna put my hunter up on the shelf.
mikephoenix Mar 1st 2009 8:03PM
for the love of god a "hero" class isn't meant to be OP...its meant to start at a higher lvl and start with good gear. The biggest misconception out there is that they are a hero class so they are supposed to be more powerful.
Avan Feb 28th 2009 5:19PM
Depending on how people define "hero class," your statement varies in accuracy. I define it as starting at 55, not as being entitled to slaughter everything with half of a coherent effort.
Their free epic ground mount, while it does make me a little sore, is understandable so they should be entitled to that; Who could honestly put together 600g in 5 levels, without using their soon-to-be-alt's wallet?
Taladan Feb 28th 2009 5:20PM
"It's a hero class" is actually a very poor excuse to break class balance.
Yes, balance is hard to achieve (and we know the rock-paper-scissor kind of balance is out of the game for a long time), but making a class incredible hard to kill due the fact that it can do damage and healing at the same time and saying "that's ok 'cause it's a hero class" doesn't sound right to me.
Against DK Feb 28th 2009 5:52PM
many thinks that because they are called a hero class they should be Overpowered... but Hero class just mean that they start in lvl 55... NOTHING else. And yes I think that DK are way to Overpowered they can out dps some pure dps classes and they can tank and it takes no skills
T Feb 28th 2009 5:58PM
I've had about enough of this BS that hero class = overpowered and thats OK. No class, hero or not, is going to be intentionally overpowered versus other classes. Blizzard works long and hard to maintain class balance, and they are never done balancing. Some classes get their time in the sun, and are, in fact, overpowered for a time. Why would Blizzard make one class so powerful that everyone wants to play it? That is stupid.
Remember when everyone hated locks? No one is calling them overpowered now. Just because DK's are overpowered now does not mean Blizzard has given that the stamp of approval. Alot of people, judging from these comments, are going to be very disappointed when DKs eventually get balanced and are no longer easy-mode. Enjoy them now and realize that Blizzard will see to it that they are balanced--even if it is several months away.
jaenicoll Feb 28th 2009 7:31PM
Not wishing to start any conspiracy theories ... aw heck ya I do.
Blizzard is a business with an agenda to make money thru providing a quality product etc etc but it also had a large retired base of players that it wanted to attract back into the game.
The decison to make DKs OP and easy mode was probably deliberate to appeal to the returning crowd (and existing players that wanted a change from their main) and also allow rusty skills to be honed.
Additionally, how long has the playing community (and we hope Blizzard) known that DKs were OP? Looking at the QQ on the forums, it would seem we have all known pretty much since the release of WotLK.
Anyways, I am sure DKs will still be a very fun and playable class but their OP credit seems to be expiring.
For serious DKs I would imagine that this will be a good thing in the long term as it will probably serve to reduce the population and competition for raid spots.
Juat my 10c
Jae
Turlagh Feb 28th 2009 8:47PM
It's called "Marketing"
A1CYancy Mar 1st 2009 8:15AM
I think "Hero Classes" have every right to be over powered. By all means do so, please Blizzard. Here's the thing, Death Knights are not much of a Hero class right now. It's too late to make them one.
Hero Classes should be seperate from all other classes. It should be more of an achievement to get a hero class than level to 60. Let's make hero classes for those who see some end game content or some higher end arena content. Not everyone should have one. Then let's remove them from normal BGs, only allow one Hero class in a normal raid and have "Hero Raids" which would be the ultimate hard mode, just as Hero classes would be the ultimate god mode.
Blizzard made a big mistake by releasing DKs like they did. Let's face it, DKs are inharently OP. Casters are balanced by being cloth and, should you land some decent hits, go down much quicker than pummeling a plate wearer. Plate wearers will smash your face in, should they be close enough to land a hit. DKs are a plate wearing caster class. They are the best of both worlds. Let's do the best to balance them with the other classes.
Will you ever see Hero Classes as more than a gimmick? Doubtful. WoW is a cash cow. DKs were just another way to get people to play. It doesn't take long to level to 60 with the help of quest helper. It was a promise of quick end game content. And it's sad because the class had some rich story line and an interesting concept
Healtuff Feb 28th 2009 5:13PM
I think this is true to some degree.
DKs have a natural head start so to speak.
Don't get me wrong, high rated DKs still are very competent players. But a DK with skill level X will do better than a Warrior with skill level X if they have exactly the same gear.
With that said, let me just say that yes I am a Holy Pally, and yes I do run with an Unholy DK
Clef Feb 28th 2009 5:25PM
Right now they have no counterclass- at all. They are tailor made for killing every class- even their own. Plus even if you do pull of a miracle and kill one, then you have to kill it a second time when the darn ghoul raises. They remove all ranged classes ability to be...well....ranged, with that damn death grip. They have passive 50% reduction to spell damage taken, they have anti magic shield which might as well be devine shield, so casters have immense trouble burning them down. They have plate so melee classes take time to burn through them as well. Their attacks are both physical and magic based so they can burn through cloth and plate alike. They can root, stun AND silence....including a ranged AoE stun. They can heal themselves. They can dispel other people's HoTs. They have pets that seem just as effective as hunter pets. They got crazy burst damage. They have AoE ice blocks for mass CC....seriously...they have EVERY tool every other class has. DKs are the worse things to happen to PvP since the days of mace stun rogues.
Just seems like ret pallys, DKs and arcane mages are just unstoppable right now. In my opinion Death Grip alone has effectivly removed ranged class strategy from the game. Whenever a DK is present, you are put where ever they want you to be put. 90+% of my fatalities with all my toons in pvp are a direct result of death grip. (although that may be because half of every team in each battlegound are DK's) That bull%$#@ spell needs to be addressed first.
Mireille Feb 28th 2009 10:18PM
This is so much blatent crap. Just about everything you said was wrong, hellishly over exaggerated, or stupid.
We don't have "50% magic resist passive", there is no aoe stun, Death Knights don't have a stun- The ghoul does. Only Unholy gets it. We have a slow, 0% for 1 second. You want to call it a root, fine, but its a slow.
I can't see why so many people either believe/say such crap if you have 0 knowledge or are purposely lieing to try and force a nerf. If its 1, your an ignorant. 2, your an asshole.
Note- I'm not saying thats the only 2 opinions, just roughly the only 2 for crap like that.
Clef Mar 1st 2009 12:40AM
hellishly over exaggerated? Heavens no.
I don't know about what talents or glyphs cause what effects, but when i get hit with death and decay, it stuns everyone within it and forces us to do a "cower" animation. So yes, they DO have an AoE stun.
Ice chains I consider a root.
All spells I cast on a DKs only do half damage, even when AMS is not on. I'm going on purely by my observations here. Are they doing something different? Who knows, but I know I can damage all classes reliably (except mages when they got their mage armors on or locks when they got their fel puppy out) with spells, but every spell is doing exactly HALF damage to DKs...sure looks like passive reduction to me.
Now learn to0 respond to posts maturely. you will never get people to support you when you talk to people like that.
Scotia Mar 2nd 2009 2:17AM
The stun mechanic was removed from the D&D glyph a patch or two, ago. So no, DKs no longer have a stun.
Piklez Feb 28th 2009 5:34PM
I'm not saying they can be overpowered because they are a hero class, i'm saying the reason they're Op is because they are hero classes, and because they are hero classes, everyone has them.
They're so overpowered because everyone has them, and so Blizz is afraid to nerf them.
Clef Feb 28th 2009 5:35PM
Hero classes were OP in Warcraft 3, too....but as a result, a player could only have a maximum of 3 hero units at any given time. If the argument that DKs are OP because they are hero classes, then maybe their presence (in BG's Arena, ect) should be limited as well.
Taladan Mar 1st 2009 4:04AM
In a way, every single class in the game is in the same point of the Hero classes of Warcraft III. You can choose abilities and customize with items.
Comparing WoW hero class with Warcraft 3 heroes is invalid, 'cause their are not the same thing.
Cromulento Feb 28th 2009 5:59PM
First time every posting on wowinsider…I just had to, because my frustration level is way up due to DKs. I think they're a tremendous mistake from a design perspective. They seem to have a lot of core abilities of other classes. They're unstoppable in PvP. I'm not a great PvPer, but I hold my own with my prot warrior and my elemental shammy and don't embarrass myself with my playing. Any DK that I come across eats my face. I'm not going to be too redundant because the above posters said a lot of truth. There's no counter-class for them, they don't ever seem to worry about healing, they eliminate ranged attackers. Sigh. Blizzard made a class that is so OP that it's ridiculous. I tank with my warrior, and DK tanks generate tons of aggro AND seem to do more damage, even minimally geared. Maybe my opinion of that in anecdotal, but I see a trend. I /rolled a DK a couple of months ago, leveled him a few times, and even though I had a lot of fun, there was no challenge to what I was slaughtering. I didn't look up how to play one, or research attack rotations like I have with my long-played classes (warrior, shammy, hunter), and it didn't seem to matter because I blasted everything away. C'mon, Blizz, this is totally ridiculous. Do you really want DKs to dominate BGs? Did you really intend DKs to have so many things in their bag of tricks that it made other classes seem less fun to play? Did you really intend to pick and choose and poach great abilities of other classes, consolidating them into one all-powerful class? Please, no DK responders who just think I'm QQing about DKs being OP, then trying to state how they're not. I have guildies who play them who state unequivocally that DKs are ridiculously overpowered, so I don't need any more than that. I don't need to have the best, most uber class. I play the classes I do because I enjoy the mechanics of them. I just think Blizz is alienating a lot of dedicated players with the obvious imbalance, and the result will be people abandoning less powerful classes and then will /roll even more DKs on my server. Good Lord, I don't want that, and neither does anyone else.
Turlagh Feb 28th 2009 8:53PM
It's still called "Marketing".
Liltimmy Feb 28th 2009 6:02PM
putz