Yogg-Saron, Old God of Death speculation
by Alex Ziebart 
Mar 1st 2009 at 12:00PM
One of the things that caught my eye in the Ulduar preview that was posted awhile ago is the description of Yogg-Saron. The flavor text describes him as 'the Old God of death.' Considering our big target in this expansion, the Lich King, that's extremely interesting.Wrath of the Lich King has heavily hinted at some sort of connection between Yogg-Saron and the Scourge, though we never quite find out what it is. The Scourge make heavy use of Saronite, an ore with Yogg-Saron himself as its origin. When the Alliance investigates this ore in the Dragonblight, they discover the Scourge says Yogg-Saron's name with some degree of hate and contempt.
A lot of people fear there's a "puppet of the master" thing surrounding the Lich King, that he's not actually his own power, he belongs to Yogg-Saron. I find this unlikely for one really big reason: The Scourge hates Yogg-Saron, and everybody else that we've run into that have fallen under Yogg-Saron's will either love him utterly or serve him faithfully. If you go to the Saronite Mines in Icecrown and do the quest Slaves to Saronite, you see just how faithful some of his servants become once they've been controlled. If Yogg-Saron were controlling the Lich King, we'd see a very different Scourge.
This doesn't mean that the Lich King doesn't get any power from Yogg-Saron, however. It's possible the Old God is having some of his power siphoned off by the Scourge. From a story standpoint (and ignoring game mechanics), if a Mage were to find and utilize Azeroth's ley lines, all of that extra, loose magic flowing by could give that Mage's spells a whole crapload of extra kick. The Lich King's throne is more or less directly above the Old God of Death and his domain. We don't know if that was intended by the Legion or purely coincidental, but it leaves a lot of potential for the Lich King to have more power over the Dead than he normally should.
In Ahn'kahet we see the Scourge and Yogg-Saron's servants at odds yet again. The Scourge hasn't fully taken the city, they're only seen in the upper levels of the Old Kingdom. Yogg-Saron and his servants (the Faceless and the Twilight's Hammer) hold the lower levels of the Old Kingdom. When us adventurers break through the Scourge line from behind, then go down into the depths and meet Yogg-Saron's Herald Volazj, the guy says some very interesting things to us. Volazj has quotes such as:
- "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."
- "They who dine on lost souls know only hunger."
- "Gaze into the void. It is the perpetuity in which they dwell."
- "Where one falls, many shall take its place."
They've broken the cycle. Their existence is perpetual; endless. It's not particularly satisfying, either. The books in the Death Knight starting zone tend to describe a Scourge lifestyle as somewhat utopian. At least, that's the ideal that Kel'thuzad and the Thuzadin have pushed as their doctrine. It's a life without riches, without racial boundaries, but how many Undead have we met that are happy? They all have needs, they all have hungers that they can't satisfy. Herald Volazj's words describe the Scourge pretty well.
I don't think we're seeing a 'puppet of the master' situation here at all with Yogg-Saron and the Lich King. The two are at odds with one another, the narrative has made that pretty clear. If there's a relation, I suspect it's Yogg-Saron that serves the Lich King, though not fully, directly, willingly or happily.
Patch 3.1 brings us Ulduar, dual specs, significant changes to all the classes, and more! We've got you covered from top to bottom with our Guide to Patch 3.1.Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Lore, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Zul Mar 1st 2009 12:08PM
That was very interesting. I don't have much else to say, but Yoggy will fall.
Ezlo Mar 1st 2009 12:09PM
Plus with speculation being that Yogg-Saron is the final boss of Ulduar, it wouldn't make sense to have a puppetmaster being fought before the puppet.
Taytayflan Mar 1st 2009 12:15PM
Tell that to Kael'thas.
tanek Mar 1st 2009 12:15PM
The other way around, though, could give us some interesting allies in the fight against the Lich King when we do get there.
Ezlo Mar 1st 2009 12:18PM
Did we fight Kil'jaeden after Kael'thas?
Draol May 20th 2009 3:18PM
@6(ezlo again),
They're referring to us fighting Kael'thas before we fought Illidan. Kael'thas was using Illidan to secure power, remember?
"Oh no no no, he was merely an instrument. A stepping stone to a much larger plan. And this time, you will not interfere."
Sallix Mar 1st 2009 12:47PM
Ulduar was merely a setback
Muffiny Mar 2nd 2009 6:16AM
@4(Taytayflan)
Kael'Thas is a special case, we got to fight him before his puppet AND after as well. :P
Alakrios Mar 1st 2009 12:15PM
Anyone else remember Ingvar the Plunderer's quote after he first dies?
"My life for the... death god!"
Granted, with the Valkyr that appears, we all know he's referring to the Lich King. But how exactly did the Vrykul come to know the Lich King as the Death God?
Did Arthas impress that name upon them (in a effort to override Yogg-Saron with his own power)? Or is it merely a title the Vrykul have come to call him (possibly never even knowing that there was an actual "death god")?
Deathgodryuk Mar 1st 2009 2:04PM
I prefer to think he was sacrificing himself to me.
DataShade Mar 1st 2009 2:12PM
I think that's covered in the quests surrounding the investigation of the Vrykul in Howling Fjord: you go back in time and see the first humans being bored to terrified Vrykul, who assume that, since the their Gods, the Titans, have stopped responding to their prayers and pleas, these tiny, weak, useless creatures are a curse. Their king, Ymiron, orders them to kill all their human-born offspring; over time, all vrykul stop bearing vrykul and start bearing human offspring. Thus the vrykul start putting themselves into magical hibernation to try to outlive the curse. Eventually, agents of the Lich King find these guys and figure out what's going on; the Lich King promises eternal life to those who serve him, etc.
As Heigan the Unclean appears to be of the same stock as the vrykul sleep-watchers, this may have started before Arthas became the Lich King.
Chupathingy Mar 1st 2009 2:48PM
If by same stock you mean model, that's actually the necromancer model from WC3 (more or less), however I do agree that this may have started before Arthas became the lich king
AyaJulia Mar 1st 2009 12:17PM
I agree with your last paragraph. I feel like it would be too convoluted, even for Blizzard, to put THAT many slave-loops into the story. Ner'zhul himself has been under Legion control, then he controlled Arthas, now another control element? I hope not.
My feeling on the matter is that the Lich King we're dealing with right now is almost purely Ner'zhul, and that the only Arthas left is the body. I keep thinking of a Majora's Mask-style multi-phase fight, where we'll first kill the body and spirit together, then the spirit in the mask a few times (maybe with the real Arthas's help, or maybe he's as good as a dead hollowed-out shell now). Who knows, though. :)
ayalafatalis Mar 1st 2009 12:36PM
As far as the Lich King fight will go, it will be a complete translation of the Headless Horseman fight.
You beat up the body, the helm falls off, Arthas stumbles around blindly like an idiot while Ner'zuhl spits insults at him from the floating head piece.
XD
epsilon343 Mar 1st 2009 1:00PM
That'd actually be pretty cool, having the different elements of the Lich King present in the fight and changing as we go. I just highly doubt it'll be some sort of redemption fight for him, though. Blizzard has made Arthas the main enemy and I can't see them suddenly being like... "Go save his soul!"
rosencratz Mar 1st 2009 1:11PM
Though it can be no coincidence that the cave where frostmourne was discovered is utterly bristling with Saronite.
Whatever the connection is to Yogg-Saron it's a complex one for sure.
AyaJulia Mar 1st 2009 1:37PM
"I can't see them suddenly being like... 'Go save his soul!'"
No, especially considering....
<SPOLIER, SCROLL PAST THIS COMMENT if you haven't done Icecrown quests and don't want them ruined>
There's a quest in Icecrown in which you take the Argent Crusade AND the Ebon Blade into battle with the Lich King. Tirion says, to his face, that as much as he'd like to redeem him... there is no soul left to save. This is at the end of a long chain with the ghostly child "Matthias Lehner," an anagram for Arthas Menethil, which shows the progression of the Lich King after we leave him in WC3. I felt like that disembodied child-soul was all that remained of Arthas, and I'm still not sure the Argent Crusade knows the truth about Ner'zhul.
Dbooker Mar 1st 2009 5:42PM
In regards to the current form of the Lich King, it's a perfect blending of both Ner'zhul and Arthas. There is a quest giver on the Alliance ship (and I forget his name or the name of the quest, but it's the Death Knight guy) who tells you "Any information we can gain will be of use... The Lich King has two of the most cunning minds here." This hints to me that Arthas has given up all semblance of humanity, and mortality and given himself fully to being the Lich King as Ner'zhul/Arthas.
While still imprisoned in the frozen throne, Ner'zhul corrupted Arthas, then made him his champion, and in WC3x, with the events leading up to the battle at Icecrown, the Lich King couldn't control his servants, yet Arthas still served him and was able to act and think for himself, well enough to reach Icecrown, beat the blindfold off of Illidan, etc (Granted, he was carrying Frostmourne at the time, which was/is a part of the armor Ner'zhul was bound to, no doubt granting him some remaining control over Arthas)
In fact, once Arthas reached Icecrown, the Lich King GAVE all of his remaining power, except for what he needed to keep existing, to Arthas, so that Arthas could beat Illidan and reach him. That shows a level of trust that doesn't happen between Master and Slave, and I think shows just how much Ner'zhul valued Arthas as, maybe not an equal, but as a very loyal subordinate. And I think it would be a fair assumption he would still be valued and would have, not an equal share in the Lich King mind, but wouldn't be completely consumed.
Suzaku Mar 1st 2009 9:38PM
It's been stated many a times by guys like Metzen, Arthas and Ner'zhul have fused perfectly into a single being.
And they've also stated that they don't want to do a redemption story with him, because it would be cliche like Darth Vader. That's the whole point of the Tirion's Gambit questline, where Tirion holds out hope that Arthas' discarded hard can be used for redemption, but in the end concludes that Arthas can't be saved and destroys the heart.
Myria Mar 1st 2009 12:17PM
When have the Old Gods not been obvious Lovecraft rip-offs... Err, homages?
That, and the Scourge hating old Yoggy doesn't really prove anything. Lots of slaves hate their master, but serve them anyway.
Also, at several points we see the Vrykul refer to serving "the death god". It has been assumed that this is their term for Arthas, but perhaps not. Or perhaps they mean it literally and Arthas has truly supplanted Yoggy as the new god of death.