Wintergrasp retuning incoming
Back before Wintergrasp was first introduced, Blizzard told us that they'd finally figured out world PvP. They said to us that they'd figured out how to have hundreds of players fighting in an open zone at a time, without any major slowdown or lag issues. At the time, we were skeptical (and this was even before the instance lag after the WotLK release), and we continue to be: anyone who ducks inside Wintergrasp while things are nuts can tell you that they're far from perfect.But maybe not for the reason you think. Beatus on Kul Tiras posted a pretty well-written complaint about the layout of Wintergrasp on the EU forums, and new blue poster Ancilorn speaks up with a little insight into just how Blizzard was planning to keep down the lag in WG. They were planning to spread players around to the towers in the southern side of the zone, thus allowing hundreds of players to play, but in a few separate groups conquering different objectives.
The only problem, says Ancilorn, is that there's not enough incentive to split players up -- people who go south miss out on honor and daily quests, and there's not enough reward to make them go that far. He says a retuning of the map will eventually be done to try and spread out the battle a little more.
Which still may not work -- the thing about Wintergrasp is that, since it is uninstanced and generally unorganized, players tend to run for the biggest battles. So even if you do have nine objectives around the map, you'll still have the challenge of spreading them around (maybe have the towers go down faster if you're attacking more than one at a time, or a balance set up like that).
Blizzard definitely tried tackling a tough problem in setting up Wintergrasp, and it doesn't look like they've got it quite right just yet.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Blizzard, PvP, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
sleeptastic Mar 4th 2009 3:12AM
As long as the best path to victory is blow up wall #1, blow up wall #2, blow up keep door, the offense will never split up. What good is it to preserve 10 minutes of your clock when it takes 5 minutes to blow up 2 walls and the keep door?
Gareth Mar 4th 2009 10:11AM
Odok has the problem described perfectly for most servers, if one side has tenacity of 8 or more then the idea of sending even a small party to the south is just suicide since you'll be struggling to do anything against the walls and hold the workshops let alone have time to defend three spread out towers.
Whoever thought up the idea of including the towers really cannot have played wow on anything but a balanced server, seeing how rare these are I take it they didn't put much effort into the testing....
Ghimborak Mar 4th 2009 3:31AM
Tonight on Darkspear, we had about 70 horde players defending with two or three stacks of tenacity. The lag was something to behold when the alliance broke into the courtyard. It was about 20 seconds before a command processed, just crazy.
Eisengel Mar 4th 2009 6:16AM
Aerial combat... *arglegleglegle*...
I have to say, this is the one thing about Wrath PvP was most excited to see when reading about the beta... I set foot in Wintergrasp once, but I'm holding out until aerial vehicles and until PvP in the arena and BGs can get a bit retooled.
WTB rated BGs...
markainion Mar 4th 2009 7:34AM
Blizzard is just a joke when it come to population balance. They never have given an incentive to make realms balanced, they simple believe that people would do so natuarally. Which is funny why would people do so? I play on two realms one in which the population is roughly even. It fun, it fair and usually unpredictable, but challenging. My other realm the popluations like 2 to 1 which a joke if you think about. I play within the minority and it sucks most of the time. Sometime we do well against the odds, which is very statisfying, but rare.
Why does blizzard allow it to go on. Likely because they are ignorant of the situation. The probably all play on realm inwhich they are either majoriy or a minority by small percentate. Which make them clueless. Also I think all the authors on this site are in the same situation. Which is a shame that non of them are true reporters and willing to place themselve in unconfortable position to get the truth about a situation.
zappo Mar 4th 2009 10:10AM
And how exactly do you plan on enforcing this? Just telling people they can't play alliance? That's basically what it's going to come down to because nearly ALL PvE realms are alliance heavy. It is simply impossible to balance it without forcing people to play horde. PvP realms are often the reverse. Besides which just because one side has more people doesn't mean they participate in PvP. For that matter on my last server alliance outnumbered the horde by a fair margin, but they horde always totally destroyed them just because they had much better players.
Blizzard doesn't balance it because it's not their job to choose sides, it's yours and they give you that freedom. The most they can do is offer transfers for one faction only - which they already do on some realms.
Fenril Mar 4th 2009 8:00AM
They need to scale Machines with Tenacity, sometimes we are against 5+ to 1 and they blow thru the machines like butter.
SCALE THE FREAKING MACHINES, WALLS, ETC WITH TENACITY. There was some weekends that horde defended ALL FREAKING WEEKEND. You know I only have 33 WINS since the dam thing has started and I PLAY ALOT, i am sure by now horde has OVER 100+ wins in that same time.
Lookapally- Kul tiras EU Mar 4th 2009 8:45AM
another thing they should look at is the 'leave WG' option which beatus abuses to not die
number9 Mar 4th 2009 9:35AM
When are they going to fix the damn door cheat that allows people to drive vehicles though?
That pretty much ruined Wintergrasp for me, and I've stopped playing it...
Divni Mar 4th 2009 9:41AM
They really should rework AV as well.. remember those days when people actually turned in their scraps? When you could summon this druid party that would then summon this huge giant, unless the horde would defeat the summoners so you had to defent them at all costs.. (sorry I forgot their names, it seems so long ago).
Nowadays it's just a race on who can bring down the opposing faction's boss the fastest. Which is good for marks but at the end of the day this is a game, and I really really had fun with those classic AV battles..
Ohh.. the good old days.. ^_^
Icckleguy Mar 4th 2009 10:29AM
If Dance Studios is the one feature you HAVE TO HAVE in game, then maybe going outside and dusting the crumbs off your chest might be a good idea?
i bet ur either a naked night elf on a mail box or some one who just looks at any excuse to whine whine whine about somthing.
either that or a druid who is still moaning about no new skins.
minor aesthetic changes to a game of the size and complexity of WoW are meaningless, and whiule they may be pretty and nice to look at mean nothing in the grand scale of things. As soon as you get one of these changes you will play for 5 minutes showing off to the vast majority of people who don't give a f*** and then go about your happy way thinking you are the leet sauce.
dude give it up and worry about something important. Not that anything in wow is IMPORTANT its a game, you don't like a feature, GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE
stevens.ce Mar 4th 2009 8:05PM
"dust the crumbs off your chest"
- I Lol'd
mj Mar 4th 2009 11:46AM
Don't kid yourself. WG is Wow's first and only world PVP success, so players and Blizzard are doing (and should do) a happy dance for that.
But it's got major flaws. Honestly I don't think lag is the biggest, as this article suggests. By far the biggest is the balance. Before the patch, lag was terrible, but the balance was perfect, with the offense winning about 60 percent of the time. You want the castle to change hands often, but you still want the defense to have some chance of winning.
Since the patch, lag is better (but far from perfect), but balance is terrible, with offense winning 80 percent of the time. I don't even show up to defend any more, there's no point.
Fixing the balance is easy, and it should be the highest priority.
Andi Mar 4th 2009 12:14PM
I agree that Wintergrasp is Blizzard's first successful world pvp in the game! I love WG, I find it a lot of fun as a healer.
There is a real problem with the fights being completely imbalanced. I play alliance, and we usually have WG 3/4 of the day. Not because of skill (though some of our regs are hardcore pvpers who get their stuff done!) but just because we outnumber them. I'm not complaining that we win WG, but I would like to have a more even playing field so that winning is something to achieve for. I'm not sure how this could be done. Maybe working on tenacity is the answer. I'm not sure.
The lag is what kills me though. During prime time hours, fighting in the keep, my spells will be queued up to five times behind. My target is often dead before the spell is even cast. I just have to try to keep Prayer of Mending bouncing around. This isn't any every prime-time occurrence by any means. Normal prime hours are fine, just a little bumpy. But when it gets laggy, it gets real laggy. IMO, it's either a little laggy or it's so-bad-you-can't-do-anything laggy. There doesn't seem to be an in-between.
stevens.ce Mar 4th 2009 8:11PM
The towers are not enough to entice people to go south - you have to have something of REAL value. Some mentioned airplanes or flyers, but I suspect that won't help with lag - I can only imagine the issues with random explosions everywhere and how that would affect play. I wonder if some sort of doomsday device would be enough to entice people - something that with enough people and effort could guarantee a win, but that effort would require a significant exposure of one's rear flank - you'd have to pull enough people from the keep to either weaken your attack on offense or significantly limit your defense - put one for each faction at opposite southern ends, and make gathering stuff a part of it. Ultimately, I think instancing it would made it easier to control, but less enjoyable - I like the fact that I can do it as a group or an individual. I love WG - outside of old-school AV back in the days of all-day BGs, Wintergrasp is definitely Blizzard's best effort to date at PVP.
ash Mar 4th 2009 9:46PM
Well, I think the whole splitting up to defend the towers needs to be worked on since it obivously affects people on realms where the factions are very unbalanced. My server is not so bad as Wintergrasp tends to change hands often, although, the Horde who outnumber the Alliance do tend to win defense more.
I know that going to get the towers has always been kind of a pain as far as getting credit for kills and objectives to complete the daily quests. I think there is a quest to go protect the towers but it might be given by the commander in the keep. This kind of doesnt make sense as it should be given closer to the objective. If they are going to get people to spread out they need to also spread out the quests and incentives. This also applies for the offense as going to defend the towers isnt worth it if no one shows up. If your side just storms the keep, not only will you not get any objectives and kills you also won't see any action let alone pvp points.
Deathomen Mar 5th 2009 2:19PM
Spread things out more, eh? Hmmm, well i dont know how it is in other battlegroups, but that brings back nightmarish thoughts of current AB.... All objective-based pvp will be broken until blizzard adjusts (i suggest nuking) the HK incentive.
Now as far as WG, I would say uneven populations is a much bigger issue than some lag, for the people who are on the ass-end of it. Soulution? Rework Tenacity, and this time, HIRE A MATHEMATICIAN to help! Make it ratio based. This way, a team won't end up having enough people to not get any tenacity at all, and still be outnumbered 2 or 3-1. Do some serious testing too.
isus Mar 12th 2009 9:08AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVuLYdlv-_I&feature=channel_page