Retribution DPS too low
by Zach Yonzon 
Mar 4th 2009 at 1:00PM
Ghostcrawler had one line to say about a flood of complaints from Retribution Paladins who are feeling the pinch of a restrictive tree, effectively ending the argument: Blizzard feels that Retribution DPS, particularly in PvE, is lower than how they would want it in 3.1. This comes in light of the changes in the upcoming patch, which on the surface seems like a good thing because of the slimming down of the tree and freeing up talent points.What many players should understand is that unlike pure DPS trees or even other hybrids, Paladins simply don't have any room to be flexible. Retribution Paladins can pick up every damage-boosting talent already with points to spare, and there's just a DPS ceiling that simply can't be broken through. Whether Ghostcrawler's statement indicates that they'll be reversing the 3.1 nerf to Fanaticism and Righteous Vengeance remains to be seen.
The nerf to Fanaticism is very clearly aimed at PvP burst, but has deep implications to overall DPS considering that Judgement crits also proc Righteous Vengeance. Both changes result in massive performance dip in PvE. The continued nerfs to Retribution -- even in PvP -- no longer make any sense. A healer completely negates a Retadin, and with the upcoming nerf to Improved Hammer of Justice, this weakness will become even more glaring in PvP. The only consolation now is that Ghostcrawler and his team are aware of the problem. Whether that means anything will be done about it, of course, is anyone's guess.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
Valcore Mar 4th 2009 1:06PM
Hmmmm....I've traditionally been holy and have recently been running ret a lot and find it really enjoyable. I hope they don't destroy all of the fun =P
smiley Mar 4th 2009 2:48PM
They aren't nerfing it, they are buffing it.
the problem being burst dmg is already very high on ret pallies, but thier overall dps is low.
I'd like to see them do more white dmg adding to thier overall dps to not effect thier burst so much.
It sucks when a pally can either be simply an annoyance or with a lucky crit string oh em gee wtf i got my s@$# pushed in
Lorsty Mar 4th 2009 1:06PM
I hope they do someting about it but I also hope they don't forget about the other classes.
It's kinda good (I guess) that they can say "We did it this but we don't like it" instead of leaving us in the dark for months due to the lack of communication.
purgex Mar 4th 2009 3:22PM
As a ret paladin that is well geared, I can "feel" this ceiling on dps. No matter how geared I get, breaking 4500dps on patches. My other character is a mage who has not yet completed the superior achievement (my retadin is 1 slot off epic achievement(libram...)), yet my mage can dps at almost the same level.(3900 on patch). This is NOT right. If i have 10 ilvl226 w/ stuff, i should do waaay more dps than the mage with one naxx25 peice? amirite?
Also, in uludar w/ t8, do we not lose our 7 second judgement...
Zach Mar 4th 2009 3:26PM
@Purgex - That's exactly my problem now. I've got pretty much all BiS items now, T7.5, Betrayer, Greatness, etc., but I just can't push beyond a certain point and I get left behind by equally geared (sometimes even less) Death Knights, Hunters, Mages, Rogues, Warlocks...
It's very frustrating.
M Mar 4th 2009 3:41PM
Right now, Ret Pallies aren't doing quite so bad. I don't play one, so I don't know what's up with them, but they're usually competing with DKs for highest DPS, when played competently. On my server, which is not nearly one of the better servers, in a guild that isn't even top in its faction (tied three ways for second), a Ret Pally holds over 5600 dps on Patchwerk:
http://wowwebstats.com/oq5guztstgcwo?s=240808-274142
There will always be a ceiling based on gear, so until you have the absolute best-in-slot gear, you haven't reached your ceiling yet (regardless of class/spec).
I have no interest in playing a Pally, so I don't know if 5600 is the ceiling or if it can yet go higher. But so far, it doesn't sound quite so bad.
Devant Mar 4th 2009 5:06PM
Yes, Pallies may have a lower DPS cap but they reach it much faster than any other class. No Pally was complains when they're doing 3k+ dps in heroic purples and blues. At the end of the day you're still a hybrid class. Stop complaining that ONE tree isn't perfect. The only other classes that has any sympathy for you are Druids and Death Knights. Bottom line you are still one of the most useful and needed classes in both pve and pvp. Oh no you got nerfed over and over. As a Warlock I have zero sympathy for you. If anything Nerf Pallies more.
slartibart Mar 4th 2009 5:17PM
@Devant,
sucks that Blizz doesn't agree with you huh....
Cry me a river.
muffin_of_chaos Mar 4th 2009 6:18PM
Agree with Devant. As long as Ret Pallies have fewer troubles than other classes/specs, please fix the others first. I'm a little tired of the Pally mania, they're doing fine if not spectacular in every aspect of the game.
But if you need to change Pallies...
Get rid of Divine Shield (keep Divine Protection and let it also reduce stun/interrupt/pushback duration by 50%)
Let holy shock hit five people
Make Judgment of Justice reduce movement speed by an additional 30%
Give Pallies their own Anti-Magic Shell (identical to Death Knights)
Create a talent that adds Retribution aura damage to weapon strikes or makes it an active damage aura while keeping the nerfs noted above (however you can balance this to increase overall damage while reducing burst)
There, now Paladins can aoe heal, aren't unstoppable PvP juggernauts (or at least, less) and Ret Pally burst is weakened but damage slightly increased and kitability also reduced. No Pally QQs about Prot these days, and as one myself I know that there's no reason to.
This would all seem very easy to do.
SteveV Mar 5th 2009 4:03AM
Divine Shield is a key class component, and removing it would completely change the class.
Every time I see one of these treads, some QQing PvP boy says 'Get rid of Divine Shield', stop being such a sheep and try and come up with your own ideas eh?
Divine Shield gives pallies immunity for 12 seconds, once every five minutes, it is not OP, especially after Blizz nerfed dps done while shielded. So try to stop QQing long enough to LTP...
mysty Mar 4th 2009 1:07PM
oh ffs..
Mpmagi Mar 4th 2009 2:36PM
My sentiment exactly. Clothies already last about a global cooldown against paladins.
Mel Mar 5th 2009 4:22AM
And clothies last so much longer against fury/arms warriors, and death knights, and rogues, right?
Problem here is not in PvP, its that PvE damage is too low.
Pablo Mar 4th 2009 3:33PM
GC is always concerned about all classes but warrios, buffing again pallys and nerfing down warriors its just stupidity...
Sporkstabber Mar 4th 2009 1:12PM
Nerf 'em to the...wait whu?
Matt Mar 4th 2009 1:12PM
No, GC you had it right.
Into the ground, baby.
Max Mar 4th 2009 1:24PM
please leave ret pallies in the ground where they belong.
Lemons Mar 4th 2009 1:12PM
hmmm, what are the words I'm searching for?
..ah yes..
"To the ground, baby!"
jerzz80 Mar 4th 2009 1:47PM
Honestly, are we suposed to feel any sort of sympathy for the chose Pallies?
Sorry your cant top DPS charts, sorry. I really am.
Sorry Pally is the best tank in the game. Sorry.
Sorry Pally is the best healer in the game. Sorry.
Sorry you cant be the best class for every single situation. Sorry.
I have had it with Pally QQ. you're the chosen class everyone wants to be.
Do you see Rogues and Mages crying that they cant heal or tank?
Im getting real sick of people feeling entitled to be OP in every tree. Wanna top DPS chart, roll a Mage. Im not interested in you plate wearing, healers, with tank mechanics mad that they cant faceroll through the game.
/delete class
Angus Mar 4th 2009 2:03PM
Oh stuff it jerzz
My wife's disc priest can keep a tank up as well as a holy paladin in similar gear. When holy they can yawn through vortex. Healing through Loken is much easier with ANY healer over a paladin.
We still use a warrior for our main tank because he can do the job and do it well. Go ask progression guilds what they use for 10 man Sarth+3. Most will say DK or Bear for Sarth himself. Heck, a demon is a better tank than a paladin for that.
Ret was a joke spec, leveling was about the only reason to use it. So it had crappy DPS and somehow people were supposed to be okay with a class that can't do damage well at all?
They finally make it pretty good but they don't listen to people. Ret paladins said "Our scaling will not be great if you nerf us to the ground." They had almost all their talents done at 70. The last 10 levels had no DPS increasing talents. So people complain about balance for a class that hit the ceiling before they did and Blizzard listened.
Ret damage is low. I see them try to DPS and they lag behind. Unless they are decked out in BIS all over and good, they are well behind a DK that is any good in mediocre gear.