Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsRetribution DPS too low
by Zach Yonzon 
Mar 4th 2009 at 1:00PM
Ghostcrawler had one line to say about a flood of complaints from Retribution Paladins who are feeling the pinch of a restrictive tree, effectively ending the argument: Blizzard feels that Retribution DPS, particularly in PvE, is lower than how they would want it in 3.1. This comes in light of the changes in the upcoming patch, which on the surface seems like a good thing because of the slimming down of the tree and freeing up talent points.What many players should understand is that unlike pure DPS trees or even other hybrids, Paladins simply don't have any room to be flexible. Retribution Paladins can pick up every damage-boosting talent already with points to spare, and there's just a DPS ceiling that simply can't be broken through. Whether Ghostcrawler's statement indicates that they'll be reversing the 3.1 nerf to Fanaticism and Righteous Vengeance remains to be seen.
The nerf to Fanaticism is very clearly aimed at PvP burst, but has deep implications to overall DPS considering that Judgement crits also proc Righteous Vengeance. Both changes result in massive performance dip in PvE. The continued nerfs to Retribution -- even in PvP -- no longer make any sense. A healer completely negates a Retadin, and with the upcoming nerf to Improved Hammer of Justice, this weakness will become even more glaring in PvP. The only consolation now is that Ghostcrawler and his team are aware of the problem. Whether that means anything will be done about it, of course, is anyone's guess.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 7)
Alanid Mar 4th 2009 2:05PM
@jerzz80 we don't want to top every chart, we just want to be at least decent, because of your comments im rightly telling you to shut up hell up - dont like it /deleteaccount
Ted Mar 4th 2009 2:06PM
@jerzz80
How many mages want to tank to begin with? The playstyle of the class, along with the lore, the design, all of these things factor into a reason to play. What if you want to be a righteous DPS instead of a lol13yearold undead "rouge", or a bounce bounce bounce cloth wearing nelf.
BTW, having interest in lore and character is different then LOLRP if you're going to make that argument.
turkeyspit Mar 4th 2009 2:34PM
@Jerzz
"you're the chosen class everyone wants to be. "
Anyone else LMAO in real life?
No kid, you are thinking of Death Knights.
Paladins are the class everyone struggles to play because Blizzard lacks a f'ing clue.
Next time, pick the Sugar Free cereal for breakfast, kk?
Naix Mar 4th 2009 2:37PM
@jerzz80
*Standing Clap*
Well said and someone had to say it. Pallies have had it too easy for far too long. You still can't kill one, you still can't get a better tank than one, you still can't get a better healer than one, and for a short time you could not gett a better DPSer than one. It was the perfect OP class and everyone was rerolling one, until they saw the nerf hammer starting to swing. Now its just the healing and tanking that are OP.
Pallie tank and Pallie healer = win....every time.
So now the pure classes (Rogues, Warlocks, Mages, Hunters, Priests and Death knights) are starting to make a comeback and Pallies cry and cry. Well get over it you still have two trees you can be awesome in...so go be awesome in those!
bundee Mar 4th 2009 3:19PM
I don't necessarily agree with Jerz completely, but honestly, if they had a class that could competently perform the tasks of 3 different roles in the game, what would be the point of having 10 different classes? If everyone rolled a druid or a paladin, what would be the point of rogues, priests, warriors, or mages? Sorry, your DPS tree sucks for PVP/PVE/farming/whatever. Either learn a different tree or re-roll.
/Boomkin PVE+Feral PVP
jbodar Mar 4th 2009 7:14PM
@bundee
"Competently"? One or two trees from every hybrid should just be worthless at one aspect of the game, huh? Every class should be at least "competent" or "adequate but not exceptional" -- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/competent -- or maybe just able to compete at every role in PVE/PVP. Not everyone can or should be the best, but no tree should be laughed out of a raid or BG, if spec'd for that role.
Your design view is boring at best and Blizzard agrees, since they don't want Arms to be the only Warrior PVP tree, for example.
Wasn't it druids as well as pallies who were told to shut up and heal back in the day?
DeathPaladin Mar 4th 2009 1:17PM
I do hope this problem gets fixed before 3.1 is made live. My own paladin may be permanently benched at this point, but I'd rather not see Retribution get gimped again either way.
My own recommendation would be to give Retribution more tools. That way they could bring Ret dps back up without adding more burst-inducing "+x% damage to everything", and it would liven up the rotation while they were at it.
Splatter Mar 4th 2009 1:51PM
I'd love to see a new spell added in.
I have a few free GCD's atm ...
Alanid Mar 4th 2009 1:27PM
I hope they do give ret a bit more potential for DPS - all the PVP nerfs are taking their toll on PVE whish ISNT what blizz want, they want to buff the pve but nerf the pvp, but everyone else jst complains anyway. Well done all you whining moaners who are trying to make ret spec totally unplayable /slowclap I myself play prot and like it, when dual specs kick in i'll probably have my second spec as ret - i hope that it will still be alive then.
Vogie Mar 4th 2009 1:28PM
I don't mind ret being low on dps. Maybe if it sticks, I'll actually be able to get my Warlock to tier 7 instead of losing the roll to the (at least) 2 Paladins per raid...
kudia Mar 5th 2009 2:28AM
How about 3 new talents that boost damage. Currently picking up every possible damage boosting talent including pursuit of justice still leaves 14 points up in the air. A lvl 66 pally can make out damage as much as an 80.
photometrik Mar 4th 2009 1:29PM
I really hope they do something about this. I recently specced Holy, mainly because I found it hard to compare with other DPSers with similar gear as a retadin.
It makes me sad that they initially made the class waaaay too overpowered right before WotLK, and then proceeded to nerf us, and KEEP nerfing us until we were "six feet under, baby."
Finally they are starting to realize their mistake, but it's cause for many eye-rolls all around.
Cyanea Mar 4th 2009 1:30PM
That picture's from a ring card in the TCG, not a pally card.
*nerd* :D
Zach Mar 4th 2009 2:23PM
@Cyanea - NERD! lol.
Shhhh. You're not supposed to tell.
Kor Mar 4th 2009 1:30PM
hmm do whatever I will play with what you give me or I will reroll
Muse Mar 4th 2009 1:32PM
I don't get it. Things are pretty much perfect on live. Or as perfect as it's going to get for a spec based on instant-burst-and-crit. A little bit OP in PvP, right in the middle of the group in PvE. The current PTR has Retri a fairly under-powered in PvE, and still painful in PvP. Notice I hesitate to say, "a lot". On a scale 1-10 where 1 is lol and 10 is OP, on live we're at 5 in PvE and at 4 on PTR.
But I honestly have no idea what to do about it. Retri is sort of painted into a corner here.
Dukenukemx Mar 4th 2009 1:35PM
Zach didn't we cover that you don't know how to be a Retribution Paladin? You're a Holy Paladin and you should stick with what you know.
Anyway, no PvP Ret Paladin picked up Fanaticism or Righteous Vengence (beyond 1 talent point). Otherwise how would Retribution Paladins pick up Improved Hammer of Justice in Protection(which was also nerfed)?
Blizzard nerfed these talents because of the introduction to Exorcism, but what they didn't know was that Exorcism even in Naxx wasn't enough to put Ret anywhere near the top the damage meter.
They also did it so Retribution Paladins didn't have a PvE and PvP spec for when dual specs would be introduced. Otherwise Ret Paladins would have a PvE and PvP Ret spec, which would not help the tank/healer shortage. They're trying to promote the idea of Rets having a secondary tank spec or heal spec.
Zach Mar 4th 2009 2:25PM
@Dukenukemx
Oh my. Here we go again. I never said PvP spec picked up Righteous Vengeance. I just said the nerf to Fanaticism affects it. Fanaticism is picked up by a lot of PvP builds because it's direct burst, which is a PvP thing. Here you go:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0ebVfZVfrxbIzfMsgzho
0/20/51 used by the highest rated Ret Pally in the world, among others. Oh hey, look, it has Improved Hammer of Justice.
It's been a while since you've trolled. At least troll intelligently.
Dukenukemx Mar 4th 2009 10:44PM
Zach the reason why no Ret Pally picked up Fanaticism is because of Improved Hammer of Justice made your Judgment of Command a 100% crit every 30 seconds. Plus there's much better talents for PvP to spend 5 points into.
This build has been considered the pro build for Arena Ret, or at least some variant of it.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0ebGcZxfrtrIufMsMzuo
Who ever is using that build has an awesome Arena healer cause it's based around Seal of Blood/Martyr. Besides not picking up Deflection, Two Handed Weapon specialization, and other useful abilities.
Like I told you before Zach, that you should visit www.retpaladin.com. There is much to teach you.
Malkeior Mar 4th 2009 4:15PM
Most high end arena paladins don't even spec SoC.
Retpaladin.com disagrees with much of what you say, Duke.