Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsRetribution DPS too low
by Zach Yonzon 
Mar 4th 2009 at 1:00PM
Ghostcrawler had one line to say about a flood of complaints from Retribution Paladins who are feeling the pinch of a restrictive tree, effectively ending the argument: Blizzard feels that Retribution DPS, particularly in PvE, is lower than how they would want it in 3.1. This comes in light of the changes in the upcoming patch, which on the surface seems like a good thing because of the slimming down of the tree and freeing up talent points.What many players should understand is that unlike pure DPS trees or even other hybrids, Paladins simply don't have any room to be flexible. Retribution Paladins can pick up every damage-boosting talent already with points to spare, and there's just a DPS ceiling that simply can't be broken through. Whether Ghostcrawler's statement indicates that they'll be reversing the 3.1 nerf to Fanaticism and Righteous Vengeance remains to be seen.
The nerf to Fanaticism is very clearly aimed at PvP burst, but has deep implications to overall DPS considering that Judgement crits also proc Righteous Vengeance. Both changes result in massive performance dip in PvE. The continued nerfs to Retribution -- even in PvP -- no longer make any sense. A healer completely negates a Retadin, and with the upcoming nerf to Improved Hammer of Justice, this weakness will become even more glaring in PvP. The only consolation now is that Ghostcrawler and his team are aware of the problem. Whether that means anything will be done about it, of course, is anyone's guess.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
Dukenukemx Mar 4th 2009 7:01PM
@Malkeior
The spec I linked was directly ripped from front page of retpaladin.com .
If you're so convinced that spec is the most popular high end arena spec then link me the proof.
I don't doubt that people use the spec, I just doubt the popularity of not using SoC.
Zach Mar 4th 2009 11:01PM
@Dukenukemx - What for? So I can read crap like this? The build you linked picks up Improved Ret. Aura, Eye for an Eye, and one point in Righteous Vengeance. If you actually knew anything about Retribution, you'd know that a lot of points in PvP builds are discretionary.
Some Arena build pick up 2/2 Divine Guardian for utility to soak team damage when you bubble, because when you bubble there's a switch.
Not everyone you use Judgement of Command on is a stunned target. A flat +25% crit to Judgements will always be better.
But if you insist on SoC, here's a build that picks up Fanaticism AND SoC:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaeb0fZVfMtbIufMsxzho
Here's a 0/10/61 build used by another top Arena player:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxZVfrtbIucMsguAo
Notice a trend? That's right. They ALL pick up Fanaticism. It's a flat +25% crit to the nuke you'll most often use in Arenas. PvP is all about crit. If YOU don't pick it up, that's your problem.
Stop trying to discredit me. You only look like a fool.
Before you start pointing to that site you hold in such high regard for PvP builds, perhaps you should actually review the builds of the top rated Retribution Paladins in the game. Maybe you'll learn something.
The more you talk, the more it becomes apparent to me how little you know.
Zach Mar 4th 2009 11:21PM
"Anyway, no PvP Ret Paladin picked up Fanaticism"
I really should've stopped reading right there. But since I'm a nice guy, let me help you out:
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player/all/us/23/all/all/
Go through all those builds, bro. Tell me how many skip Fanaticism. You'll find that some use SoC, while others prefer SoB/SotM.
Even Vance Phuoc aka Serennia remarked how powerful SoB/SotM is in Arenas. He would know. He's one of the best players in the world:
"-Seal of the Martyr: This seal scales extremely well and was never really neutered like Seal of Command was so many times. It is now arguably the best seal for arenas because of how consistently hard it judges and can crit for extremely high amounts of damage."
Zor Mar 4th 2009 1:39PM
why do you want to DPS in Pally?
when there are oddles of only DPS only classes?
i think its only fair now.
you had your 2 months of being beyond op....now the tweaks are in,
hopefully it will aleviate the influx of countless re-rolls everyone did to Pallys - Ret in particular.
serves all those who jump at the flavor of the month club
there are REASONS some TREES are PVP or PVE
you made your bed, lay in it.
JuicedCardinal Mar 4th 2009 6:33PM
Maybe I wanted to do DPS as a paladin because I 1) want to DPS, 2) want to wear plate, 3) like the idea of the paladin class (having rolled some variant of the class in every RPG I've ever played). Not a fan of DKs (talk about flavor of the month...), I GUESS I could roll a warrior to DPS, but since I can also tank with him I suppose that means my DPS should again be low.
Syrandel Mar 4th 2009 1:39PM
This is a joke, right?
Eternauta Mar 4th 2009 2:14PM
No.
You're a joke.
ShadowMagus Mar 4th 2009 1:42PM
/shrug
I play prot, and plan on picking up Ret for PvP when 3.1 hits. Honestly, I feel bad for my Retribution brothers and sisters, but then again sometimes I feel like ret pallies aren't real pallies. Especially when I'm LF1M Healer and every pally in LFG is ret.
Alanid Mar 4th 2009 2:09PM
/agree on that, i like ret paladins, but there are too many atm
Reinhold Mar 4th 2009 1:45PM
And Warlocks are left with almost nothing.
Anyways, flavor of the month, alongside with DKs, enjoy getting balanced.
Malkeior Mar 4th 2009 4:17PM
Actually, Locks who break the 1800's can face roll a team.
Zor Mar 4th 2009 1:46PM
- to address this issue, was to stop this game from turning into World of Pallycraft
i mean, cmon?!?!, the way things were, you'd be a fool not to be one, and your raids not consisting of 75% pallys
tanking, healing, dps of the gods....hell if it didnt go right, just bubble and cook a 7 course mean while spanking the boss with your spatula
it was going that direction trust me....
my new 2 week old twink already tops all, as did my roomates, a few friends of ours...to our guild +100 members all dabling in the art of Pallycraft
tell me this is what Blizz intended.
;)
now the fix is on in a flurry to stop everyone from doing that
thank God for DK to add flavor
zappo Mar 4th 2009 1:47PM
"What many players should understand is that unlike pure DPS trees or even other hybrids, Paladins simply don't have any room to be flexible."
Like... say every other dps class? Sure as a rogue I could take things like higher dodge or parry but that lowers my dps - which is my job and unlike some classes about the only thing I can do. Paladins don't have any room to be flexible because of poorly designed talent trees. Protection seems to be in the same boat really with a few talents left over. With the changes in 3.1 a lot of 5 point investments become 3 points and allow you to go into various different things. Flexibility comes at the price of "non occupation talents". Look at the rogue community whining about the "wasted points" in the middle of a combat build. DPS was too low sure, but that really isn't strictly a function of talents. So instead of being happy with things like being able to pop out of snares you get... yet another thing that increases damage and that's it. Soon to be mandatory for a good build.
Draimen Mar 5th 2009 12:58PM
As prot you have too little extra points to put outside of prot, as ret you have too many.
Zor Mar 4th 2009 1:49PM
as someone put it bluntly on first page
"Especially when I'm LF1M Healer and every pally in LFG is ret."
QFT
Dukenukemx Mar 4th 2009 4:10PM
Then you should have rolled a Holy Paladin to heal those Ret Paladins.
JuicedCardinal Mar 4th 2009 6:44PM
Man, you must hate it when you see a Shadow Priest, Fury Warrior, Elemental/Enhancement Shaman, Balance Druid, or DPS Death Knight.
Chuddy Mar 4th 2009 1:51PM
I wish they would add another attack in there for ret's. Maybe the 10 point talent rather than the seal. Nothing too insane but just another one that does a little damage like how strangulate does minor damage but also adds an effect, then boosts damage for the next CS.. I dunno. Just thinkin' off the top of my head right now. It also felt way too boring. It was CS, DS, judge.....wait...wait..wait...CS DS...judge..wait wait. I went back to prot after 10 minutes of that. Sure there is more to it but prot's just too much fun as a paladin for me.
mastercontrolcast.wordpress.com
Dookieshed Mar 4th 2009 1:54PM
Alright, so in BC ret couldn't DPS. Well, it could, you just never saw someone good enough to make it work. Good ret paladins would seal twist and have the right gear.
Now, you press buttons and do instant attacks for crazy damage that crit all the time. A freakin 3 year old could hold his own as a ret paladin.
Why is everyone under the assumption they should be at the TOP of the chart? It's fine if they're right in the middle. The standard used to be lolret, and it got boosted to insane OP, and now it's middle of the road. I don't see why that's a problem.
If you're not happy, respec holy and heal my raids.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Mar 4th 2009 2:13PM
So because you need healers for your raids you want someone who rather play a spec they enjoyed (and pay to do) to do something for you? Maybe you should reroll a healer and heal your own raids.
It gets annoying when there’s a class that’s been broken for so long and people jump all over that class - always picking on it - and NOT once taking a look at their own spoiled selves.