Retribution should branch out
by Zach Yonzon 
Mar 6th 2009 at 1:00PM
After admitting that Retribution DPS isn't quite where they want it to be in the current build of Patch 3.1, Ghostcrawler illuminates us a little bit about the direction they wish to take with the spec. He explains that the Retribution tree is one tree where players would go 0/ 0/ 71 if players could (if they put Divine Strength in the Retribution tree, he might even be completely right!). Blizzard would like to increase Retribution's DPS but are looking into making talents in other trees more attractive, essentially forcing the spec to branch out somewhat. This would be akin to how they slimmed down the Warrior's Protection tree, which turned out to be a good thing for the class. He feels that most trees in general are "too thick," making it hard for players to put points in another tree. Hopefully, we'll see some changes in the PTR that should reflect this design direction in the near future.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Ametrine Mar 6th 2009 1:13PM
Save time, just move Divine Strength to Ret and get it over with.
Logan Mar 6th 2009 1:30PM
Protection likes having Divine Strength just as much as Ret; moving it is a bad idea, especially wit Kings going from the base protection talents too. Divine Strength is still immediately accessible to Ret; leave it where it is, I'd say.
Andrew Mar 6th 2009 2:19PM
Us tankadins could benefit with some more points floating around we could stick in other trees, too.
Although, to be fair, they would all go into ret.
flythebike Mar 6th 2009 1:14PM
I've been following the ret thread on elitist jerks and they are going to have an awfully hard time getting ret where they want it without making it even stronger in PvP.
Basically there is an inherent problem related to the two paladin dps seals, and the damage yourself when doing damage mechanic, and also where some of the talents are now. Basically they need to find a way to increase pve dps while still forcing pvp paladins to go 19 points down the prot tree for improved HoJ.
They could do something like a 15/5/51 build for ret, if they can put something in holy worth taking.
Naughton Mar 6th 2009 2:17PM
Do you have a Link to this thread? I can't seem to find it.
Clbull Mar 6th 2009 4:30PM
In my opinion, one of the things which made Ret OP in PvP combat (mostly in 3.0.2 but even in some ways now) was its burst damage potential, especially if you could stun and then burst to death in mere seconds. Combine that with the Paladin's protection abilities and you got one tough player.
I think that boosting overall dps without making the burst sky high is what needs to be done.
flythebike Mar 10th 2009 9:47AM
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t37843-retribution_paladin_thread_wrath_3_0_a/
Dyermaker Mar 6th 2009 1:20PM
I think this is a poor idea and one that is difficult to implement if other ideals are to remain a part of the Paladin class.
The problem is, each of a Paladin's trees focuses on a specific role. Other hybrids have multiple ways of filling roles, but Paladins really only have one for each. Druids and Shaman can DPS with melee or casting, very distinct differences. Warriors chose between the different styles of Arms and Fury, more subtle than Druid/Shaman differences but still different.
Paladins do not have those options. DPS will always be a Two Hander. If they try to make spell power take too much of an impact, they undo all the work they did in baselining itemization at the start of WotLK. You cannot have a caster DPS option for Paladins because you are back to needing too many stats.
This leaves adding melee DPS elements to the Protection tree, the very things they removed at the start of WotLK when they pulled things like Precision.
What I think Blizzard wants is for the DPS elements in Retribution to be attactive, but not leave enough of the PvP talents available so a single Ret build has enough for both. I believe this is a noble goal. They do not want to dump all the PvP elements into a single tree for fear of it becoming "the PvP tree", so they need to have enough in that tree such that each spec is meaningful in a PvP setting. But as long as you have to "waste points" to get something meaningful in another tree, its back to what they had before. If they just add a 5 point talent to holy to make the defacto Ret build 5/5/51, is it really a meaningful change? Points in another tree are nice, but unless they are manditory points, its a waste. And if they are manditory points how it is any different than what was Precision before WotLK?
Kinman Mar 6th 2009 1:24PM
Leave us alone GC
Brian Mar 6th 2009 1:29PM
to the ground baby.
Ensane Mar 6th 2009 6:21PM
That phrase is so overused, it was only mildly funny to begin with. Now its just plain stupid. I'm starting to think a lot of the people that go on this website have a scewd sense of humor.
thundrcrackr Mar 6th 2009 1:28PM
And we would want to put points in other trees WHY????
Srsly, didn't blizz just fix a lot of trees by putting talents that didn't make sense where they were into the trees they should have been in? And now they're talking about basically putting things back in the wrong tree so we can "branch out"? WTF sense does that make?
I swear...they just F around with things way too much...
Naughton Mar 6th 2009 2:21PM
Because if the do make all the Ret talents a Paladin would want into the Ret Tree, every ret would spec 0/0/71 for both PvE and PvP. In the same Build you would have the highest capable DPS and Most PvP Utility in the same build. And that would be bad. Instead, what blizz, and most of the Ret community wants. Is to have the Core dps Talents in the Ret tree. Then Put Major PvP talents into the prot tree, and Dps ones into the holy tree. This way u finish ur spec off by putting them in either tree. Of course Some talents would need to be subsituted in the Ret tree for each PvP or PVE spec ala Divine Purpose, eye for an eye, ect...
thundrcrackr Mar 6th 2009 2:53PM
It makes no absolutely difference whatsoever if both PvE and PvP ret pallys are 0/0/71 because they both need different talents within the that tree so its NOT the same build.
ash Mar 6th 2009 10:21PM
At what Naughton said.
I don't know if this has been specifically stated as a design goal, with PVE dps going up Holy and PVP going up prot, but if it has been can you or someone please provide a link.
If this is their stated intention though, then they really need to overhaul whats done in holy. Maybe add a necrosis like ability in the holy tree or to address mana regen they could add another ability for melee or judgements to give back mana in holy. Those are just some thoughts, but I think anything would have to be added to existing talents or the tree would get too bloated.
The main problem I think though was that Ret already had a lot of points left over when people would still go into Prot for kings but with kings now baseline it freed up even more points. Add to that the fact that they nerfed some of the Ret talents while making making them cheaper meant that now you have even more points to go around but no where to effectively put them for increasing your PVE dps.
Robert M Mar 6th 2009 1:33PM
They want rets to delve into other trees? They have holy talents that aren't even fun for holy pallies now they want rets to send points to that tree?
Give me a fjucking break! How about they make the holy tree a little more fun and top tier talents that also complement ret? Can someone say Omen of Clarity? The top of the druid trees are perfect for what they are trying to pull off, though why they want players to, essentially, HAVE to spend points outside of their tree is beyond me.
What is really disgusting is that I remember reading a GC post where he said that very rarely does a build become popular that the designers do not expect. As we have all learned, when it does (/cough the deep enhancement elemental build) they designers decide to fix the player base outsmarting them anyway.
Really, what becomes the point of the talent trees when builds come up that the designers change for no other reason but they didn't see that build coming?
Thundrcrackr Mar 6th 2009 1:38PM
He already nerfed us to the ground.
Now we're 6 feet under.
Dahras Mar 6th 2009 11:24PM
Heals too! Damn, your team must suck! Seriously, a dps class is #1 healing? What the hell are the healers doing? Hitting stuff with their staffs?
If that is true, I will eat my hat.
thundrcrackr Mar 7th 2009 2:07AM
I'm talking about after the 3.1 changes duh.
Ichigo Mar 6th 2009 1:35PM
I don't trust Blizz to do anything constructive to the tree without immediately whacking the living crap out of it with a nerf bat.
Seriously, Ret Paladins are Charlie Brown and GC is Lucy with the damn football.