Does 'bring the player, not the class' apply in PvP?

When asked the question of whether BTPNTC applies to PvP, as well, Ghostcrawler had a succinct answer: "we're not sure." He explains that the immediate concern is to make all specs equally viable in PvP (read: Arenas), with particular focus on the class specs that have historically been underrepresented. I can tell you right off that that they probably overcompensated with Survival Hunters. With such limited numbers -- twos, threes, and fives -- it's quite unreasonable to think that just any combination of classes and specs will work the same way they do in PvE.
Ghostcrawler says that one of the coolest parts of Arena play is "building comps with certain synergies". Ironically, that's probably also one of the most uncool things about it. Certain compositions are naturally synergistic and strong that playing outside of the box or cookie-cutter Arena specs (as far as cookie cutter in PvP goes, anyway) actually gimps some classes and players. Some classes are just so strong that some pro players reroll and never look back (i.e., Serennia rerolling a Death Knight) while other pro players just give up (e.g. Korean team withdrawing because of Death Knights).
Class and spec parity is most assuredly a top priority, but the Arena format will never, ever be as class or spec-friendly as traditional PvE content. Arena play demands greater synergy within teams than a dungeon ever will. Ghostcrawler says, "I'm not sure it would be a good design goal to say almost any 2, 3 or 5 classes can form a good team together." Although he mentions in passing that some teams have no healers, it should be noted that in 3v3 -- the money bracket which pro tournaments focus on -- there are no successful pure DPS teams. This means that some classes will continue to be more in demand than others simply as a consequence of the format.
That said, some effects are somewhat 'mandatory' in PvP the way Replenishment is for PvE. For most of the first four seasons, this was the Mortal Strike effect. It was so critical to PvP that the effect was tagged on to Aimed Shot as one of the ways to improve Hunter desirability in Arenas. A current variant of this is the HoT-removal of Death Knights or the HoT-reducing effect of a Warlock's Shadow Embrace. With healers being key to the success of many Arena teams, particularly on the pro level where quick burst simply no longer happens, there needs to be a way to balance things out.
Blizzard seems to be on the right track about prioritizing spec viability, with the 'make tanking more fun' philosophy that resulted in higher tank DPS also having the happy side effect of tanks becoming more viable than ever in PvP. It will be a slow and understandably unending process, but the developers obviously know what abilities or effects will make specs viable in PvP and Arena teams. Short of handing out Mortal Strike to everybody (something they had considered for Enhancement Shamans at one point), it will be interesting to see what other things they can add to make different specs not just viable in PvP, but desirable in an Arena composition. I mean, Dispersion is cool, but it probably isn't the answer...
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Forums, Arena






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
T Mar 7th 2009 2:14PM
No it doesn't apply. Bring the class doesn't apply either.
Bring the gear, not the player or the class.
lolwut Mar 7th 2009 6:24PM
You're bad if you think that. Gear plays a factor in everything, but I'd take a lesser geared/skilled player over some retard in purples that he got from WG any day. Just look at how many PvE pros got their PvP gear from slaying dragons, see how they have ratings in the 1400s? Yea, gear ≠ skill.
Stop blaming everything else but yourself because you can't PvP. If you say "Well I don't care cause I don't PvP anyways." Then your opinion on this article is void.
Once again, good players are good, no matter what season, no matter who gets buffed or nerfed, no matter what gear or class. Everyone else is just mediocre, including myself.
T Mar 7th 2009 3:59PM
I am neither good nor bad. After having played the arena system and seeing first hand via several different classes just how bogus the arena system is, I've boycotted it for quite some time. I even gave Blizzard the benefit of the doubt to see what changes were made with WotLK. It is still broken. I'd love to go in the Arena and have a good time. Now is not that time, nor will it be until Blizzard fixes the entire system.
Give everyone the same gear in the arena, and you'll see who is good and bad. You can sit there and accuse me of this that or the other, but the fact is you don't know a damn about me or my abilities in PvP.
lolwut Mar 8th 2009 6:25AM
I know that anyone who says gear is the only thing that matters fails at arena, period. If you put so much weight into gear and how it affects everything PvP wise, then go do tourney realm. But I doubt you will break 1600 there, cause then reality smacks you in the face and you realize it wasn't because someone killed more monsters than you, its just your own abilities, or will you blame class issues then? Ironic that the good players on live are STILL good on tourney, wow what a surprise.
Are there serious balance issues? Yes. Does gear play a factor? Yes. But that doesn't mean players or classes are completely negated because someone has a higher item level, if you believe that then you obviously don't have enough experience in arena.
I'm not defending arena, cause I completely agree with you its not designed well enough to be the end all be all skill tester. But people who say gear is the only thing that makes a difference in PvP obviously don't PvP enough. PvP is a mix of class balance/spec, team comp, gear, player skill, and RNG/luck. Some outweigh others, but none completely decide a match.
Jennifer Mar 9th 2009 4:41PM
I got pulled into a 3's team with my boyfriend's Warrior and his Mage friend.
Their comp: Warrior/Mage/Paladin. Their paladin had very poor situational awareness and would end up with poor decision making (i.e. bubble and heal himself first, rather than the dying DPS; get sapped MID-COMBAT somehow)
Anyway, I play a priest, I have ~800 resilience. I had a higher win/loss ratio compared to the pally in the warrior/mage/priest team.
I was told "Too bad you didn't roll a pally".
Why? Our lost games were due to me just not being able to survive. We couldn't think of any "alternatives" -- unlike the pally's losses where they could say "if you fixed x, we would've won". So despite me being a better player than the pally, they stuck with him (and eventually replaced him with a better pally). As a priest, I was "capped" at a certain level of success no matter what we could've done.
It was quite disappointing.
I am leveling up my alt pally. Hopefully I'll be 80 and gear up before it's too late for me to catch up to the PvP train.
jer Mar 7th 2009 2:26PM
I dont know how it goes in the higher brackets, but to me its more like bring the heroism/bloodlust over anything else.
Falcom Mar 7th 2009 2:27PM
I really hate the constant war of the two different games(PVE and PVP) that cause balance changes from one to screw over the other. They are trying to make two totally different concepts work with the same setups, it just doesnt work and never will. So we will always have constantly changing specs/talents that nerf something until a new strategy is found to be effective, then that will be nerfed, or something else buffed to make up for it, usually resulting in an undesireable result for other half of the game.(PVP screws PVE, and PVE screws PVP)
Truth Mar 7th 2009 2:36PM
Don't bring the class, bring a Death Knight.
Fixed.
Ilnara Mar 7th 2009 2:42PM
It's a little early for an April-fools post isn't it?
overthehillphil Mar 7th 2009 2:47PM
Group PvP should never be BTPNTC. Sure in 1v1 I would expect it to be more "player ability" over anything else, but in group combat, diversity plays a major part in tactical strategy.
There will be exceptions, but it's common sense that you shouldn't see 3 or 5 warriors in 3v3 or 5v5 respectively, beating out more well rounded teams that compose of ranged, close combat, melee, spell, healing, or otherwise. It just wouldn't make sense.
The same is true in that armies don't fight wars strictly with infantry.
Basically what you have in WoW pvp is this:
Groups of very skilled players using very bad class combinations will beat out very poor players using the best class combinations. When you put equally skilled players up against each other it will always come down to class combination.
SimpleSurvival Mar 7th 2009 2:58PM
Blizz's stated goal is that each class will have its equal market share in each bracket...
The PVP mantra is more accurately
"Play the class you want... its not going to suck compared to everyone else"
Its a good thing that blizz offers some awesome synergies between classes in various brackets. The approach to forming a team is a science in itself.
Granted right now the theory is broken... because unless the class you wanna play is a DK, its going to die by the hands of one...
drak Mar 8th 2009 6:03PM
@simplesurvival
If you are right, that would make Blizzard a new low on the org iq totem pole.
The top 'marketshare' specs are the ones with most OPness.
So what they are saying - if your assertion is accurate - is that they created imbalance then plan to lock it in.
personally I think we can safely assume they are smart enough to rotate OPness over time to ensure ongoing gamechange tensions that reinvigorate interest and competitive instincts among players.
Blacksabre Mar 7th 2009 3:06PM
Don't worry, guys...there'll always be mages to kill.
Kadamon Mar 7th 2009 4:47PM
As a Mage...I'd have to agree.
But you left out Holy Shamans, now THOSE are easy pickings.
Blacksabre Mar 7th 2009 5:23PM
Shhh...gives us someone to torch.
Tinnitus Mar 7th 2009 3:16PM
I dont understand why everyone have this irritating need to be able to compete with every class and spec. Why not start to appreciate the differences between classes, and settle for that some classes should be better than others for different things.
Take affliction/demonology warlocks. In season 4, whenever we met a disc priest in arena, we knew this would be a really hard fight if the player on the opposite knew a little about how to play. After awhile, after a lot of defeats against disc priest teams in 2v2, I started to appreciate this fact and try to analyze how to beat em. That was fun, and a nice challenge.
I dont appreciate classes that are OP because that usually means that a class dont have some enemy classes, classes that can really make them sweat. What I really want, and my whole point with this reply really, is to see that all classes get at least 1 or 2 different enemy classes, and 1 or 2 other classes they should be able to beat. Balance, in my point of view, is not fun at all.
Ode Mar 7th 2009 3:33PM
So if a DK in greens and blues kills you by spamming his "I kill all warlocks button" then it's fun right?
Quark1020 Mar 8th 2009 7:11AM
But its sure as hell fun when you finaly figure out a way to negate that "kill all warlocks" buttons. That should stun him enough for you and your team mates to kill them. That is how you show skill.
I love to analize the techniques that murder a character and how to get around it. If a class used the same ability/combo to kill you, you will eventualy see it coming before it even begins. By then, you should have a way to, if not negate it, at least screw with it. At least enough for your team mates to either save you or get even. Remember, you are not alone in arena.
Tinnitus Mar 7th 2009 3:53PM
As I said, its not fun when some classes are totally OP. Like DK in pvp atm. With the exception of ret pala's, there is few classes DK's really fear. When GC say that they try to make EVERY class, EVERY spec equally viable.. Well.. That would suck, imo.
Kadamon Mar 7th 2009 4:43PM
...And that makes you last.