Officers' Quarters: The hard-mode mambo

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Arriving with the upcoming 3.1 patch, Ulduar will be ground zero for hard mode raiding -- complex encounters rewarding the best loot in the game, presumably a hardcore raider's dream. There's only one problem: Hard mode is hard. Some people don't like hard. They like easy. Easy bosses, easy loot, and everybody wins, right? But other players enjoy a challenge. This week, one reader wonders how he can get his guild to dance the hard-mode mambo with Ulduar's finest.
Hey Scott,
With the release of Ulduar on the minds of most players, I thought this might be a timely question that ties in a current issue our guild's been having with what I see becoming a serious problem for us in the new 3.1 instance.
The current problem:
After clearing all available 25-man content and having it on farm for over a month, a line seems to have been drawn in the proverbial sand. Half of our raiders consider multiple drake Obsidian Sanctum the next step in guild progression. However, the other half seem to be content farming the content that is "easy" for us and are happy not logging on when we schedule attempts.
Furthermore, whenever we do get enough people for a "progression" raid, we run into the same problem. After a few attempts (I have seen as few as 2), we inevitably get the one or two raiders planting the seed of doubt.
"We don't have the DPS for this."
"Our healing is weak."
So, after no more than five attempts, most of the raid has jumped on the bandwagon . . . already fed up and looking to reduce the number of drakes to get the quick win.
The answer used to be to schedule your progression raids at the beginning of the week. Put a roadblock between a hungry raid and their easy loot, and you'd suddenly see motivated raiders. But now, when progression is seen as optional (or just for an achievement), how would you handle this?
Too many attempts at the beginning of the week, and suddenly the dedicated raider with 90% attendance when we're clearing Naxx has to go wash his dog or put out the tire fire on his front lawn.
If we go with our other option, to clear the easy content upfront . . . our guild tab filled with a plethora of eager raiders on Tuesday has all of a sudden turned into a desert wasteland on Thursday.
As an officer, I am desperately trying to figure out a solution to this problem before Ulduar. 11 out of 14 encounters will have optional hard modes, and I will not be happy clearing easy mode Ulduar every week for free loot.
Completely ignoring the fact that hard modes will hold the key to better loot (because it doesn't seem to be a factor now), how do I make hard modes part of progression instead of an unnecessary option?
Regards,
Twilight Assist Forever
I have a similar problem, TAF. In fact, my raid leaders have all but stopped scheduling Sartharion attempts. My guild mostly runs Normal raids, and Sarth with drakes is pretty tough with 10 people. We've gotten him with one drake a number of times, but it has always been dicey. No one feels confident about trying it with two. So rather than having to answer the question, "How many drakes are we leaving up tonight?," my raid leaders have begun to sidestep the issue altogether.
A few people are pushing for it, and I'd like to see us keep trying. The problem is getting enough quality players on board to make it work.
TAF, you have a bit of an advantage in this situation. If half your raiders want to do the hard modes, and half don't, then you could just take the 10 people that want to make things difficult and run something with them. It's no secret that the 10-player versions are more difficult, so if it's a matter of pride then you're all set. If people are more interested in the loot that drops in the Heroic hard modes, you'll have to solve the problem another way.
Here are a few suggestions.
Mandatory Attempts: As a compromise, you could make a rule where players have to try a hard mode boss at least a certain number of times. It should be high enough that people will be motivated to avoid wasting time and gold, but not so much that people just don't participate. To me, six sounds like a good number. For Obsidian Sanctum, that's about one hour of attempts. After six solid attempts (meaning, the tank doesn't die in the first 10 seconds or similar goofs), you'll agree to reduce the challenge. Make sure that this is the only run you do that week. Don't separate the hard mode and easy mode runs if you want people to show up.
No Easy Mode: If you really want to rile people up, announce that you will never again defeat a boss on normal mode once it has been cleared that way a certain number of times. If your raiders don't have any other option to get loot, they'll either have to suck it up or quit completely. It's a risk, but you'll certainly separate the sheep from the goats with this policy.
Take a Vote: A more reasonable solution is to use a ready check vote at the start of each raid. Ask your members to click yes for hard mode and no for normal mode. Majority rules, with the raid leader's vote breaking the tie (which isn't likely to occur with 25 voters). Make it clear that, once a vote has been cast, you'll do it that way for a certain number of attempts. No one can argue with democracy.
Remove the Gold Factor: To the average raider, if you don't need the loot from a hard mode boss, you won't care how the fight is done -- you just want it over with quickly. You have nothing to gain from all the extra wipes and a lot of cash to lose. So make it less painful for everyone: Have officers and other motivated raiders farm herbs and meat for a few hours. Then give out free flasks and feasts to every member who shows up for a hard mode guild first. Let them repair from the guild bank's funds for one hour after the raid. Do this every week until you beat the encounter. When your members see your dedication to the cause, they will hopefully want to help. It's going to cost you, but hey, do you want that title or not?
No matter how you get your raids to do it, once you've cleared some hard mode bosses, there will be less resistance to the idea later. Just don't slam your raiders' faces into a brick wall. If you truly are undergeared for a hard-mode encounter, wait a few more weeks. Nothing will discourage your raiders more than wipe after wipe against an encounter that you are blatantly unprepared to face.
Ulduar is going to be an even bigger temptation to sleepwalk through on easy mode. The Obsidian Sanctum is only one boss, after all. If you wipe all night, you're still just a few minutes away from potentially clearing the place. With Ulduar, however, raiders are going to be more impatient about wiping on hard modes. The more of the instance that remains, the more people will stress about finishing on time or extending the raid to another night. The upside is that nearly all of the loot from that tier will come from Ulduar, so your raiders will be more likely to show up.
It may come down to a leadership decision about whether you ever try hard modes, always try them, or try them only when you have the right group composition. Make sure you talk to your raiders and get a sense of how they feel about it before you put a policy in place. If you alienate too many on either side of the fence, you may find yourself unable to raid at all.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Josh Mar 9th 2009 1:06PM
Original complainer - please link a WWS of one of your attempts and someone will tell you if you can complete the encounter/why or why not/what you need to change
Charlie Mar 10th 2009 12:01AM
WWS is great, i highly suggest doing this.
Upload your WWS, and compare it to a guild who you know can do Sarth 3. You don't have to compare it on that fight, but maybe compare a Naxx run or two.
If your numbers stack up, you know its execution. If they're low, it might actually be that your DPS/Healing isn't quite there.
Check it out.
Huey2k2 Mar 9th 2009 1:06PM
Tell your guildees to man up and deal with it.
Manatank Mar 9th 2009 1:52PM
I don't know, but I'm torn on this. I absolutely hate the idea of achievements. I hate every time I'm in a PuG 5-man and someone wants to do some stupid hard mode achievement I didn't care about the first 5 times I had to do it. I hate that when I log in I get guildies wanting my help to complete achievements. If you need help finishing a quest to help level, or to get a particular quest reward that is fine, but if you want me to waste a few hours of my time so you can get a title or a vanity mount...
I've always enjoyed figuring out fights and learning ways to do them more efficiently. Limiting my options to doing fights in a particular way to get an achievement feels lame. I don't really mind the ones that are mostly passive achievements that you get for just doing things well (i.e. doing things within a time limit, or doing things without dying). I don't care about them either, but I don't mind anything that will make other people step up their game and get things done faster.
So, Sarth 3D is exactly the kind of achievement I hate, but for some reason I actually care about. I don't want the achievement because I care. I only want it for my guild because other people care. Not having it is a huge black-eye for our guild and hurts recruitment because for some reason these gimmicks are considered part of progression now. I really hate that despite all of our preparation and hard work we didn't have an ideal group for sarth3D. I've had to switch mains because of this one gimmick fight. I used to be our guild's main tank on my paladin. Paladins are completely worthless as a main tank on this fight (there should be an extra achievement for using something other than a DK as the Sarth tank), and the least ideal tank for any of the other tanking duties in the fight (though completely sufficient). So, I've switched to my resto-shaman to help our healing corps.
You see, we have 7 or 8 healers, but only 2 great healers. We didn't really see the consequences of this until we got to Sarth3D/Maly since Naxx25 can pretty much be healed by 3 or 4 people. So here we are, all of the normal content in the game is down and easily on farm, and now we find out that some of our players just can't cut it. Sorry guys, we are going to have to give you the boot so we can get an achievement. It's brutal. It's demoralizing, and for some reason seems less legitimate than booting someone because we couldn't down a boss.
Aaron A. Mar 9th 2009 4:27PM
"So, Sarth 3D is exactly the kind of achievement I hate, but for some reason I actually care about."
I agree. I think folks get way too worked up over titles and vanity mounts (see also: What a Long Strange Trip it's Been.) I've spent many hours on Achievements and sidetracks (e.g., my Death Knight, who started the game with 150 Riding skill, is grinding Winterspring Frostsaber reputation just for kicks), but I'm only wasting my own time with those; I'm in no hurry to pull 24 other reluctant raiders into Sarth+3 just for a 1:25 chance of a Twilight Drake.
Back to the original article, I'm a firm supporter of Removing the Gold Factor. I've done quite a bit of fishing and farming for my guild, specifically so my colleagues can join guild runs without worrying about how to pay for buff food or repairs. They're busy saving up for enchants, crafted epics, and in some cases, Cold Weather Flying; if the occasional Fish Feast will get somebody to say "yes" to a raid instead of "no," it's well worth it.
Jason Mar 9th 2009 1:16PM
Epic Fail!!!
PhantomX Mar 9th 2009 1:47PM
I'm going to be blunt. You are either a hardcore raiding guild or you are not. If you pretend to be somewhere in the middle, this is what happens.
You have members who want to progress, and then you have the rest of the nubs that make up 80% of wow. I want phat lewt epics to be just like the cool dudez on the bright blue drake, but I dont want to work hard for it.
And i'll be frank. At this point in Wow. Hard mode is not a matter of time invested, or a matter of being "hardcore'. It is a matter of either you are skilled enough to do it, or you are not. You will not be carried through Sarth 3d.
So if you are not that highly skilled, be happy in your phat lewt purplez, just don't expect to be able to conquer the hardest content in the game.
Manatank Mar 9th 2009 2:04PM
It's also a measure of the skill of the other 9/24 people you run with. It is not fun building a raiding guild up, and getting all of the bosses down only to find out that half of your new recruits can't cut it on something difficult. You work hard and it seems people are working out but none of the content until Sarth3D is hard enough to really figure out who has skill and who doesn't.
Sorry pal, you consistently put out 4k dps, and you helped us progress but you can't seem to avoid a freaking wall of flame, or a shadow fissure to save your life. Adios.
M Mar 9th 2009 2:33PM
Someone who pulls 4k DPS and dies in the first 15 seconds of the fight contributes close to nothing. Dead DPS = No DPS. This person is dead weight. Someone who pulls 3k DPS and survives the encounter is a useful contribution to the team.
The 3k guy may not have the needed DPS for some encounters, but a dead 4k guy doesn't either.
Numbers aren't everything.
Manatank Mar 9th 2009 2:51PM
"Numbers aren't everything."
Of course not. My point was that it seemed they were pulling their weight until we got to something hard, and since everything else is so easy it is hard to weed out the poor players earlier.
Allison Mar 9th 2009 3:12PM
I'm not really sure it's such a matter of being skilled. I mean, if you can push buttons in a specific order, and be able to react to things happening around you, you can eventually down anything in this game. It just takes effort to learn to push your buttons well.
People that beat the harder instances in this game are not more skilled, other than possibly having better eye-hand coordination.
steve Mar 9th 2009 3:40PM
I would paraphrase PhantomX and say "your members decide whether you are hardcore or not". These problems existed for many guilds in vanilla and in BC.
In BC, my guild didn't have a problem with getting through Kara but got stuck on Gruul and Mag. We had the same problem you describe, only with Kara -- it became our comfort zone that we could always clear. We could fill three groups most weeks for Kara, but after a few months of wiping on the 25 mans, it was hard to get people together for one night a week. We downed them just enough times to keep coming back, but reached a tipping point where we started going backwards. Motivated raiders frustrated by our lack of progress left for other guilds once they topped out their gear, but we always had an influx of new players because we were friendly and all had our Kara epics, so new raiders would get instant gratification. Ultimately we were just stuck on Kara two nights a week and couldn't even get Gruul attempts going. The GL finally disbanded the guild.
I'm telling this story because I'm convinced that player enthusiasm will determine whether your guild is going to move farther up the progression ladder, not the policies that Scott suggests. If half of your players aren't interested, you can't cajole them into progress. If a guild split is in your future, better to figure it out now, while you still have time to regroup or find a new home before the expansion then during the first week of 3.1.
Erogroth Mar 9th 2009 1:18PM
That is fustrating. I feel for TAF. I have a little different problem of my GL bringing the wrong people to Sarth with drakes. Instead of grabbing a second tank he has an officer with a holy pally respec. Now this guy is a great player but he is not geared for the fight. We also have a lack of rogue and hunters so handling the enraged becomes harder. We have gone 16 attempts on 2D before finally knocking it down to less or no drakes. Mind you this is on 10 man.
I think the suggestions given above are very good, I would not have thought of them. If I were in TAF's shoes I would probably hand of leadership and go to a guild that does want to progress. I think what you really need to do is sit down with your officers a decide if you are going to be a progression guild or a casual guild. Post this in your forums for the rest of the guild to discuss and then go from there. If you are going to be a progression guild then you may loose those people who want easy mode and you can fill the gaps with new raiders. Recruiting seems harder then ever though. My guild has been trying to fill about 5 spots for 2 months now and we get very little interest despite our progression. There is a definite healer shortage, especially as far as resto shaman and druids. Good luck TAF. I am so glad I am no longer an officer let alone a GL.
flythebike Mar 9th 2009 1:37PM
I transferred back to my old guild five weeks ago and in my first raid with them, they got 3d down for the first time. Since then we have gotten 3s twice, and settled for 2d twice, so I think I can really speak to this.
We are all committed to doing 3d. We will usually run about 20 attempts at it before we give up. Last night our first attempt was very strong, and we had about an hour of good attempts, but with a brand new-to-the-guild tank who had never MT'd it before, it took awhile for everything to shake out properly. But when it did we had zero deaths in the raid.
Nights where we have failed the raid lacked focus, lots of people would die to death spots, adds, flame waves, whatever, just carelessness/tiredness. Also on those nights it seemed like our DPS wasn't popping like it was on successful nights.
To sum up, the whole raid must commit to at least 2 hours of attempts, and you can gauge whether you should spend that time based on how fast stuff is dying, and how well people can survive. I.e. first drake should be dead within 15 seconds of second drake landing if not sooner. Raid has to be skilled enough to stay alive, geared enough to do eet.
Hansbo Mar 9th 2009 1:18PM
And all I have to say is, FAIL!
On topic, I agree this is a problem. I can't really understand the mindset of people who do not seek challenge.
nagglecow Mar 9th 2009 1:26PM
i agree with huey2k2...
while all the ideas in this article are great...in the end....I'd probably just end up telling people that I'm gonna find people who want to do the hard mode, and that they will be invited over people who want to just skate by on easy mode. Of course, if it's a gear issue, then easy mode is mandatory until everyone is geared enough for hard mode. But if thats not an issue.....they can feel free to find a different guild that meets their laziness if they like, other people want to actually have a challenge and they are hindering progress.
Hoggersbud Mar 9th 2009 1:29PM
Well, I wonder why you're bringing up "We don't have the DPS for this." "Our healing is weak." as problems, when what they could be is the key to a solution.
Do you expect to take on the hard mode without folks performing, if not to the max, at least at a certain level?
If you wipe once, it may be a mistake. Even twice. By the third time, you should be looking for what's a problem and what needs improvement.
In my guild, we tried Sarth+1 once. But for some reason, the raid leader brought along an undergeared Ret Pally to deal with the Adds.
And then he bitched about how we couldn't handle it.
I wondered why he couldn't see the problem?
Unfortunately, from his attitude, I could see he wouldn't listen to me when I pointed it out.
So I stopped making suggestions. And thus progression halted.
Adorialea Mar 9th 2009 1:50PM
I was very happy to be a part of my guild's 2-drake attempt last night, and even happier to be a part of coming out victorious. This is the first time I've gotten involved in progression raids with my guild, and while the wipes were disappointing (and eventually annoying) we didn't let it get us down. When we finally did it I literally jumped out of my chair and cheered. What's even better about our win is it was going to be our last attempt of the night!
It can suck wiping constantly but the sense of accomplishment you get when you finally do something is amazing. If people don't want to ever feel that, it's their loss.
Drow Mar 9th 2009 1:56PM
You seem to fit into the ideal mindset Blizzard has for raiding now - 90% of endgame is casual raidiers. They can sleepwalk through every raid on easy mode, and thus "feel" like they've done it all, and just don't care. These are the people that never downed T5 content pre-nerf.
Blizzard is changing it so that progression does mean hard mode. My guild had the same issue. They were casual in BC, then slowly moved more serious, and downed the first boss in BT before the big nerf. Afte that, we cleared everything in the game upto Felmyst in Sunwell before Wrath hit.
What we did, after ANOTHER Naxx25 run with "will do that acheivment next week" answers, myself and the other better players all quit the guild, took the free server transfer, and reformed and had a strict recruiting policy, and went from Loot Council to DKP. The following weeks we downed 3 drakes. We got The Undying. We PROGRESSSED when the rest of the causals were content just seeing the raids and then that's it.
So you basically have to re-form the guild...there is no other way. All the suggestions that he gives will do that. Trim out the casuals and keep the people that WANT to play and are BORED doing the same damn routine that is mind numbingly easy. I remember people saying it's to hard, and we really weren't where we needed to be, but it was the people/skill not the gear.
Fortunatly, we may be able to see Hard Mode as progression by everyone when Ulduar comes out. They stated the best loot in the game is from Hard Mode, unlike now, all of them are fluff exepct for 3D which drops a random 2 of 6 or so better items.
Matthew Mar 9th 2009 1:54PM
To throw in a few more guidelines:
Keep downtime to a minimum. Wiping is a pain, but it's a lot worse when it takes 10 minutes to get to the next attempt.
Discourage negativity. If someone is whining, call them out. Keeping morale high during progression is a challenge, and you'll probably need to flat out tell a raider or two, "Your negativity is bringing down the whole raid; knock it off, please."
Reward progression folks. Whether it's DKP, flasks, or a chance to gear their alt in a Naxx run, give them something for their time.