Officers' Quarters: The hard-mode mambo

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Arriving with the upcoming 3.1 patch, Ulduar will be ground zero for hard mode raiding -- complex encounters rewarding the best loot in the game, presumably a hardcore raider's dream. There's only one problem: Hard mode is hard. Some people don't like hard. They like easy. Easy bosses, easy loot, and everybody wins, right? But other players enjoy a challenge. This week, one reader wonders how he can get his guild to dance the hard-mode mambo with Ulduar's finest.
Hey Scott,
With the release of Ulduar on the minds of most players, I thought this might be a timely question that ties in a current issue our guild's been having with what I see becoming a serious problem for us in the new 3.1 instance.
The current problem:
After clearing all available 25-man content and having it on farm for over a month, a line seems to have been drawn in the proverbial sand. Half of our raiders consider multiple drake Obsidian Sanctum the next step in guild progression. However, the other half seem to be content farming the content that is "easy" for us and are happy not logging on when we schedule attempts.
Furthermore, whenever we do get enough people for a "progression" raid, we run into the same problem. After a few attempts (I have seen as few as 2), we inevitably get the one or two raiders planting the seed of doubt.
"We don't have the DPS for this."
"Our healing is weak."
So, after no more than five attempts, most of the raid has jumped on the bandwagon . . . already fed up and looking to reduce the number of drakes to get the quick win.
The answer used to be to schedule your progression raids at the beginning of the week. Put a roadblock between a hungry raid and their easy loot, and you'd suddenly see motivated raiders. But now, when progression is seen as optional (or just for an achievement), how would you handle this?
Too many attempts at the beginning of the week, and suddenly the dedicated raider with 90% attendance when we're clearing Naxx has to go wash his dog or put out the tire fire on his front lawn.
If we go with our other option, to clear the easy content upfront . . . our guild tab filled with a plethora of eager raiders on Tuesday has all of a sudden turned into a desert wasteland on Thursday.
As an officer, I am desperately trying to figure out a solution to this problem before Ulduar. 11 out of 14 encounters will have optional hard modes, and I will not be happy clearing easy mode Ulduar every week for free loot.
Completely ignoring the fact that hard modes will hold the key to better loot (because it doesn't seem to be a factor now), how do I make hard modes part of progression instead of an unnecessary option?
Regards,
Twilight Assist Forever
I have a similar problem, TAF. In fact, my raid leaders have all but stopped scheduling Sartharion attempts. My guild mostly runs Normal raids, and Sarth with drakes is pretty tough with 10 people. We've gotten him with one drake a number of times, but it has always been dicey. No one feels confident about trying it with two. So rather than having to answer the question, "How many drakes are we leaving up tonight?," my raid leaders have begun to sidestep the issue altogether.
A few people are pushing for it, and I'd like to see us keep trying. The problem is getting enough quality players on board to make it work.
TAF, you have a bit of an advantage in this situation. If half your raiders want to do the hard modes, and half don't, then you could just take the 10 people that want to make things difficult and run something with them. It's no secret that the 10-player versions are more difficult, so if it's a matter of pride then you're all set. If people are more interested in the loot that drops in the Heroic hard modes, you'll have to solve the problem another way.
Here are a few suggestions.
Mandatory Attempts: As a compromise, you could make a rule where players have to try a hard mode boss at least a certain number of times. It should be high enough that people will be motivated to avoid wasting time and gold, but not so much that people just don't participate. To me, six sounds like a good number. For Obsidian Sanctum, that's about one hour of attempts. After six solid attempts (meaning, the tank doesn't die in the first 10 seconds or similar goofs), you'll agree to reduce the challenge. Make sure that this is the only run you do that week. Don't separate the hard mode and easy mode runs if you want people to show up.
No Easy Mode: If you really want to rile people up, announce that you will never again defeat a boss on normal mode once it has been cleared that way a certain number of times. If your raiders don't have any other option to get loot, they'll either have to suck it up or quit completely. It's a risk, but you'll certainly separate the sheep from the goats with this policy.
Take a Vote: A more reasonable solution is to use a ready check vote at the start of each raid. Ask your members to click yes for hard mode and no for normal mode. Majority rules, with the raid leader's vote breaking the tie (which isn't likely to occur with 25 voters). Make it clear that, once a vote has been cast, you'll do it that way for a certain number of attempts. No one can argue with democracy.
Remove the Gold Factor: To the average raider, if you don't need the loot from a hard mode boss, you won't care how the fight is done -- you just want it over with quickly. You have nothing to gain from all the extra wipes and a lot of cash to lose. So make it less painful for everyone: Have officers and other motivated raiders farm herbs and meat for a few hours. Then give out free flasks and feasts to every member who shows up for a hard mode guild first. Let them repair from the guild bank's funds for one hour after the raid. Do this every week until you beat the encounter. When your members see your dedication to the cause, they will hopefully want to help. It's going to cost you, but hey, do you want that title or not?
No matter how you get your raids to do it, once you've cleared some hard mode bosses, there will be less resistance to the idea later. Just don't slam your raiders' faces into a brick wall. If you truly are undergeared for a hard-mode encounter, wait a few more weeks. Nothing will discourage your raiders more than wipe after wipe against an encounter that you are blatantly unprepared to face.
Ulduar is going to be an even bigger temptation to sleepwalk through on easy mode. The Obsidian Sanctum is only one boss, after all. If you wipe all night, you're still just a few minutes away from potentially clearing the place. With Ulduar, however, raiders are going to be more impatient about wiping on hard modes. The more of the instance that remains, the more people will stress about finishing on time or extending the raid to another night. The upside is that nearly all of the loot from that tier will come from Ulduar, so your raiders will be more likely to show up.
It may come down to a leadership decision about whether you ever try hard modes, always try them, or try them only when you have the right group composition. Make sure you talk to your raiders and get a sense of how they feel about it before you put a policy in place. If you alienate too many on either side of the fence, you may find yourself unable to raid at all.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
Lesser Mar 9th 2009 5:31PM
My old guild had a great way of fixing this since we were back in MC/BWL. People wanted to faceroll through ZG or MC on our BWL progression nights, and these same people would often not show up until after a BWL raid was sure to fail from attendance and get an MC/ZG run going.
The way we fixed this problem was to say that (for example) Tues/Wed/Thur were our 40-man nights, and that Fri/Sat were always our 20-man. The raid group never knew where they were going when until 5 minutes before the instance (it helped back then that MC and BWL were in the same sub-zone of BRM) and herded into the zone. If the raid leaders thought we were prepared for a push on Flamegor or Chromaggus, we'd head into BWL. If they didn't, then we'd go wipe up MC. This was a great way for us because if someone who wanted MC over BWL didn't show up on a Wednesday because it was going to be BWL, they took the chance of missing their preferred raid if the raid leaders mixed it up. Sometimes they would just mix it up to help keep variety and appease people.
I think this same kind of solution would work here; tell people you raid Tues/Wed/Thur, but don't tell them where or what. If they show up, they might get the easy raid, they might get the hard, but they're going to show up if they want any loot at all because if they lose the roll on which night they attend, they might miss out on your 3h Naxx-25 clear instead of that 1h of attempts on S3D they were trying to avoid.
Optimuze Mar 9th 2009 5:37PM
Sorry to tell you guys, but hard modes are here to stay. Do it or don't, it is completely your choice, but do expect to be considered a "second-rate" raider because you can't finish all content in the game. Yes, OS3D is content, yes, you need to be good to do it, if you don't care about it, good for you. People who don't want/care about being challenged point to vanity mounts and titles and an excuse to not do something. If these mounts/titles were not awarded, what would there be to complain about then? It would come down to not being good enough...I myself haven't beaten OS3D, i'm not some incredible player, but I enjoy being challenged, and AFKing in raids is not a challenge to me.
Syrinth Mar 9th 2009 5:47PM
We had success with changing our schedule to focus on progression in smaller bites. People would show up to farm Naxx and Maly, but then no-show when they knew it would be a night of wiping on 3D. We decided that every raid night would start with an hour of 3D attempts, and then we would move on over to the regular raid. People can bear an hour of wipes when you end the night in a positive way by clearing a bunch of farm bosses. It fixed our attendance issues and we quickly improved every night until we finally got it down.
Midas Mar 9th 2009 5:57PM
So you have finished up the existing content and don't feel like "hard modes" are very interesting? Congratulations, you are precisely the kind of gamer that blizzard had in mind when they created them!
"Hard Modes" and vanity rewards (titles, mounts, etc.) are the new epics.
If you were playing back in vanilla, you would remember a time when seeing more than one or two epics on a 60 really meant something. Most people ran around in dungeon blues, and were fine with it, or they ground out the dungeons dozens of times and made the craftable epics.
Most. People. Didn't. Raid.
The majority of folks got into an MC run or two before BC came out, but for the most part, Naxx 40, AQ 40 and (to a lesser extent) BWL were only seen by maybe 15% of the player base.
That's months upon months of work and creative energy poured into something that the vast majority of the players never got to see, as they weren't "hardcore" enough. The devs (rightly, IMO) decided that was crap. That spelled the doom of the 40 man dungeon.
Flash forward to BC. something like 80-90% of the player base gets to see Karazhan. This is an improvement! TK and SSC are seeing 40-50%, until the attunements are lifted, then they go up to probably 70%. BT had less, simply due to the gear check bosses, but many, many more guilds were able to progress through the content, from tier 4 to 5 and into or through 6, than ever got from tier 1 to tier 2, let alone into tier 3.
Sunwell Plateau was a retrograde in dungeon design, a concession to the hardcore, as most "casual" guilds were unable to progress past the first boss. Again, months of effort by the dev team, only witnessed by a scant percentage of players.
"Hard Mode" solves this. Now, the content is simple enough at face value that all guilds that are determined enough can make it through, and experience the content for its lore value and gameplay. At the same time, the truly hardcore raiders, the ones who got into Naxx 40 and cleared Sunwell, get to feel superior riding their Plagued Proto-Drakes, or sporting the title of "Twilight Vanquisher" around Dalaran. They still get the elite status, still get to have and do things others don't, but more content is seen by more players, and that's what blizzard wants.
So if you're really having these problems with progression, maybe it's because some of your guildies simply don't want to be hardcore. They are happy to see the content, be part of this epic storyline, and that's it. They don't need to be elite. And that's ok. (now)
Sajt Mar 9th 2009 6:21PM
This is exactly the case right now and has been progressing like this, I have experienced all of it.
It means the solution to this problem is to find like-minded players to raid with, if you feel it's not enough for you to do the same thing over and over again every week then disband the guild and form a new one, a progression guild where as soon as you have the gear you start doing the hard modes.
Pushing a guild that is mixed with "casuals" and "hardcores" leads to nothing good and will not last long as the interest of the players and their objectives are two different sides of the endgame. The "hardcores" will get bored cause of the lack of challenge, the "casuals" will moan more and more about the downside of progression, the repair/consumable costs and the extra time invested that is. This will eventually lead to the minority leaving or not showing up thus making regular 25 man raiding impossible. Let everyone find their place in the game. :)
philippad Mar 9th 2009 8:13PM
My guild tackled this issue by using DKP as an incentive. We:
1. Added Progression & Stretch DKP targets for OS + 2 & OS + 3 attempts. This meant that members received more Hourly DKP & Boss Kill DKP.
2. We added additional DKP bonuses for fast recovery (ready to go with full buffs within 2 mins of the wipe), using flasks, keeping negative thoughts to yourself etc etc.
3. We also always have an officer who provides Great Feasts for those that are too lazy to bring their own food.
While we did have a couple of nights of complete wipes (20 odd each time) before going back to 1 drake, the mood was generally pretty good because guildies could see how well we improved each time we did it. It went from being a dogs breakfast to slowly getting both drakes down, to finally killing Sarth and the Drakes.
The reality is that we have a good 30-40 members who want to do the hard stuff especially now there is DKP incentive. I think you need to reread the raiding objective in your guild charter. If you state that your casual, you can't really blame them for not wanting to bother as its the attitude and gamestyle you've set up in your guild. If it states that you want to do progressive content then I would be reminding them what they signed up for, show them your vision and stick to it!
shamman22 Mar 9th 2009 9:16PM
The real prob is that achievements are a gimmick. I think blizz should man up and actually create side boss encounters that are harder. I know the philosophy is that all people should be able to experience content, but most were happy with Kara whether or not they were able to do nightbane or not. The casuals get to "complete" the encounter with a well defined final boss and the more hardcore players can opt in for an additional challenge. Why doesn't blizz just make a few side bosses that are as difficult as pre nerf M'uru so the hard core raiders can feel good about themselves and that provides a real reward. The whole purposefully gimping yourself to get a reward but seeing no new content is just sooooo lame and cheap. How hard would it be blizz to throw in 2-3 super hard side bosses?
FoxOfWar Mar 10th 2009 5:00AM
This topic hits pretty close to home, actually.
We're starting to get near realistic gear levels to try on Sarth3D, but I'm afraid half of our raiding team just seems to want easy and fast purples and not actually carry much of their weight.
Our loot council system we recently moved into has somewhat alleviated that problem(bad players that get no loot "even tho I deserved it!" usually are the same ones who die on every boss with any kind of AoE, after all). We're relatively casual - we only raid three 25-mans and a handful of gearing ten-mans for the newer people per week.
Personally, I don't really care that much for achievements in general, but I love doing the hard mode achievements(you know, the ones that make you feel your raid actually - achieved - something...), even if they are just achievements of doing something in a more challenging fashion(like killing all of four horsemen within 15 secs) and not hard modes in the way of Sarth3D.
I just think that most of our(relatively casual) guild don't care enough for those. I guess I'm glad rest of our officers have realized that Ulduar will not be easy for us, at least - and that gearing system needed upgrade from the old "Need if you Need" we had for way too long.
I would love for more progression-oriented people, but I don't have the heart to leave the guild I know many people personally. I guess I will just have to try and subtly get people thinking that they could actually do something for a challenge.
...
(Okay, so we still haven't downed Malygos yet, so it's not so much the hard modes as people's motivation to raid in general, I think...)