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3-16-2009 @ 9:08AM
Thank you. Seriously. Members should often get their heads out of their asses, come up for air for a second, and think about all they get. It's a lot of work, it is. But all they see is the tiny things they don't get.
3-16-2009 @ 12:20PM
Essentially, you are saying that members voicing their interests in a guild is a bad thing. Perhaps they aren't the most tactful people in how they voice their opinions (neither are you by the way), but in a sense they are as much a part of the guild as you are and deserve to be represented fairly and not have to blindly accept every decision (and the inevitable mistakes) that officers make.In fact, if as an officer, you can't deal with the rigor of the role and listen to the input of the members you act on the behalf of, perhaps the role of officer isn't for you.
3-16-2009 @ 1:17PM
I lead the biggest RP guild on our server, so I kind of doubt your statement. People seem to fail at reading this article properly. I became officer and guildleader by voicing opinions and suggesting improvements, there is nothing wrong at all with constructive criticism. It is the whole; when are you going to do something for lvl70 people? When there are pre-WotLK raids and RP events accessible to all on the calendar weekly? It is the; I want to organise my own event but I don't feel I get room to do so QQ. When we ask of our members every two months to put forward suggestions for events, and then get no answer. THAT is the thing I am talking about. So really, no need to snub me. I have been officer since like... 2 months after I started playing WoW. I get 20 whispers when I log on, I organise events weekly and I lead raids. And in all that time, I have never snubbed a member, even when they whine excessively. But have I been snubbed for things that supposedly weren't there while they were? Hell yes. And that is the point of this article. If only people could learn to read.
3-16-2009 @ 1:31PM
I totally agree with Freedomfighter.The purpose of an officer/class leader/etc is to serve the guild, not the other way around. Think of it as a Democracy. The GM or officers can't just turn the course of the guild 180 degrees without consulting it's members. (Unless the gm is a douche with delirium of power).
3-16-2009 @ 1:37PM
Really Eternauta, is it so hard to read this article? Really? Guidleaders and officers do nothing but serve a guild and its best interests. Let me quote something for you from the article, maybe this will help general understanding:"It doesn't mean you have to approve of every decision they make. It's your guild, too, and you should be able to voice your opinions. The advice that I've given to these readers is always the same: Talk to the officers about it if you really have a problem with what they're doing. Either they will agree with you or they won't. If they don't agree with you, you can either live with it or quit the guild."See, see that. That is the essence. I live in a democracy. I have a vote, as do guildmembers. Sometimes though, the majority will vote for something I don't like, well tough for me then, but I will have to live with it, or leave. That is how it is in a guild. You try to please everyone, but you simply can not, it is impossible. So before you start to whine as if officers do this to spite you, maybe think about how they actually discussed the decision, weighed the pros and cons, and then came to a conclusion. Since when does democracy mean 'everyone will like every outcome'?
3-16-2009 @ 2:30PM
SarahTheGnome, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have tried to insult everyone that has disagreed with your comment (though perhaps less so on comments which I haven't read in other articles).Further more you say that you doubt a statement that was made in response to your comment, but given that that comment was a conditional, if you feel its antecedent is false, you must, as we all know, agree that the statement is true.
3-16-2009 @ 3:04PM
@Freedom FighterQuote: "Essentially, you are saying that members voicing their interests in a guild is a bad thing."Way off base dude. More like:"Members don't run guilds".Just cause your a member doesn't mean you have a say in any decision that is made ... at all ... period. If you don't like decisions, your ultimate "vote" is to leave.Now, some guilds don't have a problem with members voicing issues in public, some do. Heck, some guild don't even want you voicing opinions in private. To quote a progression guild I once was in: "We run the guild, not you, if want your advice, we will ask for it".If you want to run a guild, go make one. If you want to have more say in the guild your in, ask how you can become an officer. Till then, Officers are there to keep the guild on the track they think is best and what you think doesn't really matter most of the time (at least in good guilds that have stayed the course of time).
3-16-2009 @ 3:05PM
@ SarahTheGnomeThe problem with this argument is that you are assuming that, "Guidleaders and officers do nothing but serve a guild and its best interests," while a lot of us do not. There aren't perfect officers everywhere, and in fact, there's a lot that serve their own interests moreso than they should (on a great degree of scale depending upon the person).The grey area here is that in some guilds it's hard to tell if your officers are truly good, wholehearted people. I've been in guilds where the leaders do put in the effort to set up all guild events and make sure every incident is worked out, only to find out later that all the while they were doing what could be a multitude of unwarranted, selfish things (taking a steady amount of gold from the gbank for personal reasons, giving away free DKP with no justification, letting people sit out of a raid and play their alt because they "don't want to go" and let them reap the benefits of it).Yes, I do believe that officers that do their job FOR the guild first, deserve to be respected and treated well.
3-16-2009 @ 3:21PM
@ KakistocracyI say members should often get their heads out of their asses. If this is insulting to you, or to anyone else, then I can only assume it is because you are such a member. Because there are also many members that cause no problems. But that is not what this blog was about, so talking about those would be silly now wouldn't it? So I don't see that as offensive. The learn to read comment is then offensive? How so? It seems many people misinterpret this blog and that is just annoying. Talking offtopic about officers and guildleaders wanting to be dictators. Claiming this is what the blog is about, while it is absolutely not. When commenting, it is very annoying that you do not even get the point of the blog you comment on, because then, the one trying to have a discussion with you, can never prove his/her point, since you are not even discussing the same thing. And no, you are not right. Because the comment I made, related to the blog, which in no way, ever stated, that members, and I quote 'voicing their interests in a guild is a bad thing.' Again, arguing beside the point and not on the content of the actual blog, has no use. @ bistramo. I agree with you fully, and I was only talking of those that actually do their job properly, that in a lot of cases, people tend to see the negative more than the positive, and focus on that. But as I said, I agree, the bad ones deserve no praise, and constructive criticism, as I have said before, is always welcome and warranted.
3-16-2009 @ 9:40PM
SarahTheGnome, perhaps you aren't coming off as you intend, but as it stands, your arrogance is rather cute. I did not say that you had insulted me, I asserted that you had responded in a petty way to everyone thus far who had commented on your comment. I did imply that you would insult me, and (at least in my opinion) you carried through my alleging that I am probably a problematic guild member (based on your (apparent) complete disregard for my point).To be fair, I must thank you for substantiating my point which, had it received a response both reasonable and rational, would have been quite superficial.I do disagree that form is a meaningless epiphenomenon arising from a need to discuss content. When a discussion shifts to far from form, some sort of balancing effort should be taken to ensure that meaning is consistently understood, far from being "of no use".But I grow tired of this, feel free to go for the last word, it's yours if you disagree.
3-16-2009 @ 9:41PM
@SarahTheGnomeIf the way you run your guild is anything like how you post, I don't expect much from your guild. Yes your guild may be the largest RP guild on your server (the largest on my server is probably 40 people and hasn't downed naxx), but it doesn't begin to qualify you as a good guild leader. You and your condescending attitude and the fact you are oblivious to manners ("how is 'get your head out of your ass ' condescending") remind me of a officer in an old guild of mine who insisted people couldn't loot badges until after loot but she could. That guild ended up essentially failing towards the end of BC, merging with another guild, and then ending up being a thoroughly mediocre guild.In short, quality and successful guilds nearly universally listen to their membership.
3-17-2009 @ 5:09AM
@ freedomfighter:"In short, quality and successful guilds nearly universally listen to their membership."Please, please, do show me where I ever said this wasn't the case. @KakistocracyLet me answer to this: "To be fair, I must thank you for substantiating my point which, had it received a response both reasonable and rational, would have been quite superficial."I would love to know how my response is unreasonable and irrational. I responded to your claims, and the only response you give, and have given before, is one with big words which I am pretty sure you hope I do not understand, so you can claim that you are right based on that misunderstanding. But as it stands, you have not argued any of my views, just my tone. Which is again, driving the discussion off point. But hey, kudos for trying to come off intelligent, I can argue that is just as demeaning as any of the things I said.
Ow and Freedomfighter, I thank you for your insight, but the guild I run is over 2 years old, has near to 150 members, of which most have around since the beginning. Again, and for the very very last time. I agree that a guild is a democracy, as I have now said a million times, I welcome opinions (yes I know I repeat myself, but apparently it is very necessary). What I do not welcome (but still swallow and not comment on when members do it), is when you constantly whine and try to poison an environment based on 1 thing you dislike, instead of focusing on the 99 things you do like. The people who have done this, and have in the end, left the guild because they did not get their way (completely disregarding the fact that the other members did not want it that way, since hey, that doesn't matter), have all asked to come back after a few months, or have quit the game. Which basically says it all. Discussions are always fun, but they can get extremely annoying and tedious when you choose to ignore half of what I write so you can 'win' a discussion.
3-17-2009 @ 6:19AM
Cliff's Notes, aka TL;DR --SarahTheGnome: "Members should appreciate the good things about their guild instead of harping on unreasonable wants and expectations. They should remember that they are not the only person in the guild. If you are insulted by this, it goes double for you. I have lost most of my tact from dealing with whining morons every day."FreedomFighter: "I don't really understand what was said, so I will argue a straw man. SarahTheGnome talks in the same manner as a bad GL I once knew, therefore she must be a bad GL too and treat her members like crap. She couldn't possibly have gotten pissy with me because I argued against a point she never made..."Kakistocracy: "Insulting people is bad, mmkay? I don't like SarahTheGnome's tone, so I'll wax eloquent for 4 paragraphs to say this, then I'll play the martyr card without attacking a single point that was made. I will, however, miss the irony in attacking her form with an argument that essentially says nothing, but in excellent form. "
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