Breakfast Topic: Manners
by Zach Yonzon 
Mar 18th 2009 at 8:00AM
One of my guildmates ninja'd the Large Satchel of Spoils from the Obsidian Sanctum the other day. Technically, it was his run, he organized it, and he was Master Looter. Because it was his run, you could argue, he could do anything with the loot. But that's just ninja talk. The truth of the matter is, my guildmate had no manners. I mean, even fish have manners.This is an MMO, the central letter there standing for multi-player. This means we play with other people, real people. Real people we need to treat with a basic sense of courtesy. That's one of the tricky things about that little fiasco -- we know our guildie in real life. He's a real person, an affable big fella my wife has described as a teddy bear. The problem is that in the game, 'bear' isn't the four-letter word to describe him. The satchel was just his largest haul, but he's been known to nick the occasional Abyss Crystal from a heroic run.
Although it isn't right for other players to generalize our entire guild as an organization of ninjas, it doesn't make us happy that gives us a bad name, either. As hard as it is, our GM has taken up the unhappy task of issuing an RL friend an admonition that he will be gkicked if he did something like that again.
Why is it hard for some people to be considerate? Is it because people think it's "just a game"? Why would anyone ninja anything? Do players really need loot so badly they're willing to tarnish their reputation? Or is an asshat reputation exactly what they're going for? Maybe despite our friend's cuddly exterior, he's a lying, thieving, inconsiderate bastard in real life. I don't know. I just know that even in a game where all we interact with are pixels, there's always room for good manners.
Filed under: Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
MusedMoose Mar 18th 2009 8:07AM
Interesting article.
I think that some - clearly not all, but *some* - ninja-ing is indeed caused by people acting like they're the only one playing who matters. It's an incredibly shitty attitude to have, and sadly, I've seen it on every server I've played on. There's always someone who thinks the entire game is their personal playground.
It is just a game, true, and unless I'm greatly mistaken, there's no such thing as a one-time drop - any loot that comes up once will come up again, even if it's extremely rare. It's just sad that some people derive their enjoyment from pissing off everyone else.
majorfalcon Mar 18th 2009 8:13AM
Thank you for not saying "First!!!111" like a nine year old boy who needs attention.
However, I dont think that ninja-ing happens because the person gets a kick out of seeing others get upset...thats the part of ninja-ing that a ninja wouldnt like because then it becomes more difficult to get groups as your reputation lowers. Really the problem is that ninja's have no patience or empathy for other people and the amount of work that they all put into this game. If you just don't care...then why be fair?
Blizzard should put in some sort of reporting system for ninja's or a penalty of some sort...Or is that a horrible idea?
rosencratz Mar 18th 2009 8:25AM
Penalty systems are inherently flawed. GM's wouldn't be given the resources power to maintain these things constantly and they would only be abused by the precise people they were designed to punish against the innocent folks it was meant to protect.
Ninja's are a sad fact of life, burglars and thieves often turn out to be the people who know you personally in some way. Only do guild runs and hope your guild is a good'un is my best advise. either that or maintain a very strict friends list for pugging if you enjoy pugs.
Ishtar Mar 18th 2009 8:26AM
I like the idea of being able to report someone for, I believe the best way to describe it would be, rude behaviour. Something that could mark someone with a black mark that other people could be made aware of. The problem about this is what happens if a bunch of people get together to wrongly blackmark someone. You could put in an appeals process but then you run the risk of people successfully appealling against a valid report.
Maybe the best way to handle it would be through the community. Screenshot it and make it available for people to see, but then how do you prevent photo shopping for a bad report.
Personally I use NotesUNeed. If anyone does something that annoys me, I make a note on them. This then can be displayed when you mouse over them (including the opposite side if I remember right) and can have a note tag in chat. This is great for making detailed notes on the event and can make you more wary in the future.
A1CYancy Mar 18th 2009 9:36AM
A group of friends and I were dreaming of the perfect MMO. One thing we thought of is having "Wanted" ads in the inns. Players post reports of ninjas in these ads as well as post job offers (like run-throughs) and business deals (like all that spam you see in trade, LF 120 stacks of frostweave.) This way ppl could be aware of possible ninjas but the GMs could remain resonably detatched. Granted there'd be the inevitable abuser. There would be a vote up/down system like the forums to help balance this out. I know, I'm a genius. I'll apply to Blizzard in the morning. JK JK.
On the Ninja topic: Yes the blues are easy to come by or whatever. The instaces are considerably easier than pre BC. The frustration doesn't come from losing some BOE thats going to be replaced in Nax anyways. It comes from the frustration of leveling that toon to Northrend and DOING the work to get to raid and needing that BOE (Because who regularly farms instances that don't have needed loot?) to actually have enough Def to hit Def cap or whatever it is your toon needs. It's doing Black Morass 50 times for that GD trinket for on your fury warrior just to have a resto shaman take it (b/c oh btw, his main spec is enhance, did he forget to tell you that? oh sry :) pl0x 4give kk thx) It's easy for those in the established guild to pass off Ninjaing. Their guilds can take the time to swing by heroic Nexus one more time b/c who doesn't need some badges? All us PUGgers? Nah we're not doing Nexus. You're the only one who needs it, lets do HoL instead.
It is a game, but it isn't JUST a game. Those pixels are attatched to someone with dare I say feelings. It's less like playing Mario now and more like a team playing basketball.
~Deq
yaminokishi Mar 18th 2009 10:14AM
@A1CYancy
You mean like the Realm forums?
Nymph Mar 18th 2009 10:23AM
Having maners isn't just not ninja-ing. Last night I was kicked from a group after a wipe that was not my fault (healer) and there was no discussion or anything. One wipe, and becaue I was a little low on mana prior to the fight they assumed it was my fault. I had my shadow fiend and pot at the ready so I would have been fine mana wise if the tank had held agro and kept me from getting one shotted. Loot isnt the only thing people are jerks about
gurgle Mar 18th 2009 10:57AM
The whole "it's just a game" argument from ninjas or would-be ninjas is a headfake -- if they really think no one should get upset because "it's just a game", then they likewise wouldn't care enough to ninja something in the first place.
What it comes down to really is this: if you don't trust the master looter, don't join a run with a master looter. Insist that it's open rolls, but then also understand that every other asshat in the group will roll need on everything. That, in my opinion, is more sucky than the occasional bad master looter, so I'd just take my chances in pugs with unknown master looters.
Zach, I'd insist the dude gets kicked, RL friend or not. I personally wouldn't group with anyone in a guild that has a known ninja in it. Like it or not, but the message your GM is sending is "we tolerate this shit" which means "we approve of this shit". When your GM is saying that and you're a part of that guild, I'm going to assume you do, too.
Chuddy Mar 18th 2009 11:25AM
@A1CYancy
Star Wars Galaxies kind of had that. If you were a bounty hunter you could get things in the mail to go and take someone out. I heard of a story of this guy who "bought" his jedi character so this bounty hunter trailed him to this cave while he was fighting some mob's. The jedi was at low health and then the BH opened up on him. Killed him. And if my memory hasen't been burnt out by too many beers ( I mean really who even thinks about SWG now)than I believe that meant total loss of character.
I've said something like this for awhile and it was only slightly put in via a quest in dragonblight from the goblin. Skin x animals. mine x ore. There should be class quests. Like go track x animals or trap an anamil and kill another at the same time. Warlocks must enslave things or chain fear or something tricky. It could teach you some useful tricks. I'm sure people with bigger imagination's than my own could come up with better ideas. and yeah I know about some of the class quests but they're totally outdated and in the first wow's content...
mastercontrolcast.wordpress.com
Ellysyrian Mar 18th 2009 8:09AM
I agree completely : )
Great post.
Treeston Mar 18th 2009 8:09AM
It's because those 25man badges are hard to get by, I suppose...
It's a major PITA to get the items you need that are purchased with them...
vazhkatsi Mar 18th 2009 3:39PM
funny, we had a similar ninja, he "needed" the badges for his t7.5 pants, and after kicking everyone else but him and the guy who won the roll(a guild officer in my guild) he said that he was going to give the winner 100 gold if he could have the badges, the winner said he wanted badges, not the gold and the lootmaster said that he would have the gold or he would have nothing. naturally when the 4-5 witnesses to this left and announced it to the trade channel. his guild defended him being a ninja because it was his run and "there was no proof" (besides the screenshots on the forums) needless to say, he's being blacklisted by several raiding guilds now.
All i have to say is, why ninja a badge bag? if you're gonna drag your name through the mud, at least ninja something good.
Unknown Mar 18th 2009 8:16AM
Unfortunately I think a lot of people use the anonymity of the internet to their benefit, especially in pug runs. They think that they can ninja stuff, get moaned at for 5 mins, then disappear and never feel the repercussions of their actions. This is exactly the same reasons flame wars start on forums... No one would say that kind of thing to someone face in real life if they were standing next to them, would they?
Others I guess are just tempted by something they've strived after for so long. Some guild never saw DSTs in BC and pug runs to Gruul on my server could get pretty dicey if one dropped. I've heard of previously respectable guild members going nuts and needing on Glaives and immediately /gquitting.
If anything, the latter saddens me more. The first kind are just plain dicks, but the others are generally nice people who are caught in a moment of madness that they often can't take back.
Nick Mar 18th 2009 8:17AM
i agree that he needs to be told to stop or a /gkick is coming, but shouldnt this be the role of the GM or an officer to do in game before asking a real life friend to do it? I have friends in the game that I see at Uni and at work, and we never talk about the game outside of vent, we try to keep online and offline as seperate as possible.
Panaçea Mar 18th 2009 8:49AM
It was the GM who told him a /gkick was coming, according to the article. Unfortunately, the GM is a RL friend of the culprit as well.
Ninja-ing is nothing more than a lazy way out. It all comes down to not wanting to take the chance and time to do things fairly. If a normal player loses a roll, you get it next time.
Ninjas simply don't want to be bothered to run an event multiple times in order to get a drop fairly if they do lose the roll, so they ninja it.
Impatience and selfishness at it's worst in my opinion.
OneWing Mar 18th 2009 1:43PM
My question is - If this guy has a habit of being a ninja, why are your guild mates and friends still joining groups that he organizes and is loot master for? Fool me once, shame on you. Have a history of being a PITA with loot and I STILL let you be loot master? Shame on you.
Not to sound like a snob here, but this is most definitely on you and the people who joined the group, Zach.
Why on earth would you consider /gkicking a good, RL friend before you take the steps that you should have taken already and refuse to join parties where he is the loot master. Much easier to avoid RL drama when you are just requesting loot master privileges as opposed to kicking him from the circle of friends that play together. This way he still gets to play with you and no one gets kicked and everyone gets their loot.
Just take some responsibility yourself on this one. Yes, he needs to learn manners. But you and your guildies need to learn how to play well with others. At what point should people take responsibility for their own decisions in the game? Hate that PUGs always suck or steal your loot? Get in a decent guild and stop Pugging and complaining about it. Angry at your GM for a string of bad decisions? Guess what? You support his actions by continuing to be a member. Join a new guild already and stop asking WoWInsider what you should do about it.
When you play with other people, it isn't just the other people that need to learn how to play well with others. Take a good long look in the mirror.
That being said, if he were to start doing this in PUGs and give your guild a bad name across your server, then a /gkick is probably necessary.
Zach Mar 18th 2009 1:50PM
@OneWing - He didn't do it during our run. He formed a run with some PUGs because he thought we weren't running OS last week (he was mistaken). He's never our ML.
Plastic Rat Mar 18th 2009 11:28PM
RL friend or no, this guy would have gotten a /gkick from me the FIRST time he did it.
I strive to display certain qualities in life. I'm friends with people how have a similar outlook to me and understand things on a certain level. If they do not display those qualities, I'm left asking myself why I'm friends with them in the first place.
My wife and other RL friends play the game with me and I don't feel anybody should have special treatment in anything. Each person should be judged on what they do alone, not on who they know.
I would /gkick this guy in a heartbeat, and it wouldn't be 'because he ninja'd something in a silly videogame', it would be because he's being an asshole, and I have no reason to be friends with assholes.
ivyleaves Mar 19th 2009 6:29PM
I immediately kicked a guildie who did this on an Onyxia run and was called out in trade. Lost a couple others, one his rl friend, and one a fanboy of the friend. A thief is a thief. Trust me, this is NOT a good guy, even irl. He will do whatever he can get away with, and your guild is letting him - especially since you indicate this is not the first time. He should be kicked, and if he is, I bet you will find out irl what a "nice" guy he really is.
ScytheNoire Mar 18th 2009 8:21AM
The internet just brings out the true nature of people. The person described, the ninja, sounds like someone, if given the chance in real life, would steal. They have lower morals. But this is just my opinion, based on their actions.