Ghostcrawler talks some more on Retribution DPS

I know anectdotal stories like these are plenty and tangential to the issue, but if you've raided as a Retribution Paladin with equally geared and skilled players, you'll know exactly what I'm trying to say. So it was a major surprise in Patch 3.1 that the slimming down of the Retribution tree hit our DPS hard with a nerf to Fanaticism (reduced to three ranks for an 18% crit, down from 25%) and Righteous Vengeance (reduced to three ranks for 30% damage, down from 40%). Was it to balance out the fact that Exorcism could be used on any target? Certainly not. At any rate, Blizzard was aware that Retribution DPS on the PTRs wasn't where they want it to be.
Ghostcrawler talked a little bit about Retribution DPS, explaining to players that Righteous Vengeance was bugged, causing to deal less damage than intended. He proceeds to explain that the damage can also get resisted, which accounts for some of the lowered output. Of course, Ghostcrawler has also had a number of posts dedicated to the Spiritual Attunement change, which will make a baseline ability a deep Protection talent. The good news is that Blizzard realizes something that a lot of Retribution Paladins have always known: Judgements of the Wise in its current form isn't enough. In fights where we don't get healed, we're starved for mana.
Naturally, the reverse is true, and Ghostcrawler mentions this in Blizzard's decision to yank SA from the Paladin trainers. It makes a lot of sense. While this leave Retribution sustainability in question, he mentions that Blizzard might buff the mana return on JotW as necessary. He also explains that it wasn't their goal to nerf Retribution's mana return but to make it more stable and independent of the nature of the encounter. We'll have to see how that turns out, but Blizzard realizing that mana returns might be too low is a good start.
Finally, Ghostcrawler admits that the Glyph of Seal of Blood doesn't quite make sense anymore, and mentions that the glyph will be reworked to reflect the change to SA. The fate of the recoil from Seal of Blood / of the Martyr, little more than a gimmick now, is up in the air. He closes his post with a reassuring note, saying, "when all that is said and done, Ret's PvE damage is still probably a little low." There are several ways by which they can do this, actually, and there are several places in the tree that can be tweaked to accommodate this.
My first thought? Crusader Strike. It is the saddest, most boring 41-point talent out there right now. It's a vanilla weapon damage strike. Another spot would be Seal of Command, which isn't even the premiere PvP seal anymore because of how strongly and consistently SoB/SoM can hit. Seal of Command is a DPS drop in PvE, and simply isn't appealing enough to pick up for PvP. If SoB/SoM is reworked to remove the recoil (I'll be sad to see that go, actually, since I enjoyed emo DPS), what will happen to SoC then? A guaranteed crit on a stunned or incapacitated target won't be enough to make it worth picking up. It isn't worth it now.
It'll be interesting to see how Blizzard chooses to tweak the Retribution tree or make our DPS competitive. Ghostcrawler mentioned how they want Retribution to branch out a bit, but there's nothing compelling in other trees right now. Even the new Aura Mastery doesn't improve the haste from a Swift Retribution-improved Retribution Aura on the PTR. Even if it did, I'm not sure I'd spend 10 useless points in Holy just to pick it up. I guess we'll have to wait and see. For now, all we can hang on to are Blizzard's recognition that Retribution DPS is still too low on the PTR. One caveat, though, as Ghostcrawler says... they make no promises.
Filed under: Paladin, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Forums






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Johndoz Mar 18th 2009 8:10PM
inb4 flames
jusjoeshin Mar 18th 2009 8:18PM
hes comparing ret pallys to dks. dks got nerfed too.
Trell Mar 18th 2009 8:26PM
heh, good timing.
and good strategic "first" post ;)
Fangorus Mar 18th 2009 8:15PM
Another QQ for ret pallydom? Sorry, that's 'so pre-WotLK'. You pallies will have to wait in line behind rogues and MANY other classes QQing about DK dps overshadowing their own. And they would be correct.
Durango Mar 18th 2009 9:31PM
As a dk I do feel sorry for rogues, pure dps classes should be doing more damage than me. I dont know much about the paladin changes in 3.1 but the dk changes are definitely not a nerf in the dps department, although it is nice knowing that this ignorance is protecting me from walls of QQ.
RG-Rhodin Mar 19th 2009 9:19AM
Thank you Durango for that. For some reason, Blizzard doesn't seem to get that pure dps classes should top DPS meters. And they don't.
To me, that means, dps classes should not just do more dps, but they should dominate (10-15% more) dps over other classes, the way a healer should dominate healing.
slartibart Mar 19th 2009 9:26AM
To RG-rhondin, Blizz doesn't seem to "get it" because that's not their design philosophy.
5% as stated by GC. Sorry.
kgoradio Mar 18th 2009 8:17PM
Paladins shouldnt be known for their damage output, but rather their survivability. IMO it wouldnt be right to have both traits.
Sagretti Mar 18th 2009 8:22PM
That logic doesn't work in terms of PVE dps. Currently, Palis functioning at peak are still substantially behind all other dps classes in 3.1. I believe there was even a Shockadin build that managed to put out more dps briefly. Raid bosses near instant kill all non-tanks, even plate wearers. No raid leader is going to sacrifice a huge amount of dps for the neglible increase in survival.
Posi Mar 18th 2009 8:19PM
Are you for real? Ret Pally complaining about DK's being OP. Both classes need to be nerfed to hell.
Ichigo Mar 18th 2009 8:32PM
Idiotic post like this are anything but constructive and do nothing but inflame the issue.
DK's are a bit OP right now but they are a "hero" class after all. Ret Paladin is the weakest of the 7 (8 if you count Shockadin) plate DPS classes.
Blizz has been messing around with the class for over 4 years now and still fails to understand what the class should be and what the people who play the class enjoy about it.
jaenicoll Mar 18th 2009 10:42PM
Oh come now, sure I can understand how we are gonna be upset that our dps is going to take a hit but we are OP and have been since 3.0 patch. Why is there so much surprise about this?
Sure DKs are even more OP but thats marketing for ya. Now they have the old school players back in the game, their time of glory is over thank Bejeebus.
Jae
Crill Mar 19th 2009 8:41AM
When are people gonna realize that DKs being a hero class has NOTHING to do with game balance what-so-ever. I constantly see people pulling this one out, and Blizzard has stated again and again that does NOT mean they should be better than the other classes.
crsh Mar 19th 2009 8:53AM
@ Posi
Don't bother telling that to paladins, too many of them live in bizarro world where they self-righteous believe they should be the best in every role.
Dahras Mar 22nd 2009 12:42AM
Honestly, I think that most of the people who think that ret pallies are OP are not well geared yet. Sure, a ret pally will make 2k dps WAY easier than say, a mage, but we scale for crap. Best in Slot ret pallies will be SIGNIFICANLY outdps'ed by most dps specs, and this problem will only get worse after Ulduar comes out.
brittwilson Mar 18th 2009 8:18PM
I don't understand Blizzards process for changes.
In PvE, If Ret doesn't get healed, they starve for mana, and on fights where they get healed, they have an abundance of mana, GC states that they know this.
So why is the thought process
"Ok we will make SA Prot only."
"Should we buff Ret mana regen to compensate?"
"Naw, lets wait and see"
This isn't a nerf one and buff another situation, where it really may take some time and play to figure out if a change needs to be tweaked or not. To say that Ret is mana starved when not getting healed, but they don't want to nerf Ret mana return, then taking the mana away from getting healed, Ret mana return can do nothing but go down.
I would much rather see them do some kind of placeholder balance, like adding 5% to JotW, and then see where we are from there, instead of just leaving us in the hole.
TBH, Id rather see mana return on something else, Judgement is already overloaded with important things, but this just doesn't make sense to me.
Angus Mar 19th 2009 8:19AM
What gets me is in the same patch that they remove a mana return mechanic from Ret AND substantially lower 2 dps talents, they give enhance shaman a better version of JotW.
Huh?
Enhance already has shamanistic rage (horrible PPM system aside it is better than nothing) and water shield to help them out, they can switch from lightning shield to water shield when mana is an issue. Ret has no such mechanic.
I just don't get it. The whole "to the ground" thing was a bit much. I play a tank, but on the PTR I have found that ret gets stuff done a ton faster in certain situations. Too bad other dps specs get it done much faster than ret.
Eisengel Mar 19th 2009 5:18PM
Keep in mind that GC has said that DKs are too good... so comparing Pallys to DKs is not a good comparison. It could be that Rey Pallys are overtuned and need to be refocused, it's just that DKs are a LOT more overtuned and will be brought down even more. I think these nerfs will be coming after Ulduar, since Blizz wants to balance DK tanking first and then make a pass on all the trees to bring them in line with the other classes.
equinn Mar 18th 2009 8:21PM
I'm pretty sure any ret pallies who actually want to play the game have moved onto different characters or different specs..
Tom Mar 18th 2009 8:33PM
damn right. I shall be respeccing Holy, Prot or both very soon.
dps is in abundance, and if these nerfs stick ret will be even further down the picking order for PvE