The drama of DKP
by Mike Schramm 
Mar 18th 2009 at 5:00PM
Donnyman is going through an issue with his guild that many a guild has faced before: the drama of going to DKP. Especially lately, it seems like lots of guilds are aiming to make the jump to DKP: because the endgame is relatively easier lately, lots of folks are getting into raiding seriously, and unless your guild is the closest of friends, you can really only go so long without people starting to wonder why the other guy got that roll when he's only been to two raids in the last month when they've been to five. At that point, the guild either breaks up due to loot drama -- or you decide to settle on a system like DKP.The good news is that lots of guilds have been through this before, and there's a lot of great guidance out there about how to switch to DKP and what kinds of systems you might use if you do. I've only been in one guild that decided to go from a free-for-all roll to a loot system -- they chose Suicide Kings, everyone agreed it was fair, and they've never looked back. Donnyman's having an issue with his guild leadership's decision to put a little erosion on the DKP, and it's true -- if the whole guild isn't behind a disagreement like that, there could be some breakup. There's lots of great discussion in the LJ thread about how decay actually affects people who can't raid from time to time, and Donny ends up with two choices: be OK with it, or find another guild (there's plenty of them around).
It's not impossible to pull off a switch to DKP from a free-for-all system, but you need to a) make it clear that it's in everyone's best interest (if loot drama is starting to sneak up, it probably is), and b) make sure it's as fair as can be. Consider what your guildies want (more loot, just to have a good time raiding, or to reward people who do well or people who need the gear), and then go with a system that meets those needs.
Filed under: Tips, Virtual selves, Guilds, Odds and ends, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Lycanthro Mar 18th 2009 5:06PM
My current guild uses a form of suicide kings, it's the first guild that i've been in where we've raided seriously and there hasn't been one iota of loot drama. I mean we're all clamoring for our 226 weapons but every week another person gets theirs and if you haven't seen a piece of loot since your last 7.5 token you're gonna walk away with Betrayer!
justlikehoneybaby Mar 18th 2009 8:00PM
I've used suicide kings in two raiding guilds and found that it led to people passing up upgrades to sit on their spot to hold out ofr whatever item they just had to have. And then, those who had just looted, scavenged lots of loot while at the bottom of the heap. And way too much stuff got sharded. And folks who had not raided in 6 months conveniently turned up and grabbed our first Mags' kill chest, Lady Vashj loot, etc.
rick gregory Mar 19th 2009 2:44AM
faar... and the reason you're able to get to KT, Saph or Malygos is.. ? right. The people who showed up and learned the fights that get you that far. Pure rolls leads to people sitting out raids until their on farm, swooping in and rolling for great gear without having helped in the least to get the team there.
Want gear? Raid consistently.
Agate Mar 18th 2009 5:12PM
I'd encourage everyone to check out EP/GP (http://code.google.com/p/epgp/). It's not perfect, but it does solve many of the common problems with DKP systems:
* Works using an in-game addon for easy setup and use (no website to manage)
* Fixed item prices for minimal in-raid hassle (auction systems can really slow down a raid)
* Doesn't suffer from "inflation" -- new raiders come in on a fair basis
* Allows players to be rewarded for attendance, donations, or anything else, not just boss kills
* Did I mention it's easy to set up?
It's not the simplest, it's not the most flexible, but it's the most balanced and easy-to-use DKP system I've seen so far. Its principle shortcoming is that it doesn't leave a "paper trail" so you can see who looted what when.
Anyway, check it out.
AyaJulia Mar 18th 2009 5:40PM
I was coming to the comments to suggest just this. My guild is a rather recent merger of two smaller ones, and EPGP has served us fantastically well. It's definitely the fairest system I've ever seen.
bundee Mar 18th 2009 5:56PM
My problem with EP/GP is that there is a decay, for one thing, and that the people that raid the most get the most loot. This may sound fair at first, but this is not the case in my guild. There are a few of the officers that are at ALL of our raids, without miss, and thus have the most points. This means that they have access to the latest and best drops at their disposal, because they have PRIORITY over those with less points.
My problem with this is that although always present, the players are not doing their very best. Their dps is lower than mine, yet they have better gear than I do. (Both of us are hybrids, btw, not pure DPS classes, and I'm a druid, not a DK) and their grasp of mind control seems to be subpar, at best.
Yet every time something drops that I want, I'm can't be guaranteed that I'll be able to make the cut in terms of points. I don't always raid. But when I do, I do my damn best to be at the top of the DPS chart, in addition to decursing, and battle rezing, and the extremely rare offheal.
Agelamer Mar 18th 2009 6:59PM
@Bundee
Bad DPS > Zero DPS.
Show up and show the guild you are dependable, else don't cry when the loot you want goes to someone who is dependable but not as skilled.
Imo, that's an example of the system working perfectly, the person gets the loot who would benefit the guild the most.
As for for the topic at hand, Loot Council all the way. The only system that can truly take everything into account.
bundee Mar 18th 2009 7:06PM
While your assertion is true, the problem with this is that those nights that the bad dps shows up and the good dps doesn't, no progression is accomplished.
I don't always raid because of school and work, but the days that I am available that the guild raids, I do my best. I'm not trying to discredit him, just that he really doesn't help the guild move forward.
Khon Mar 18th 2009 10:53PM
@bundee
And how do you ensure that your "good DPS" shows up? By rewarding attendance ABOVE perceived superior performance, i.e. people who raid more have a better chance to get good loot regardless of how they perform.
I'd say your guild's system is working as intended.
Faar Mar 18th 2009 11:09PM
Dependable schmependable.
If I'm there at the raid THAT EVENING, I damn well better get equal chance at rolling on the loots. I helped down the bosses, I'm as eligible to those purples as anybody else.
DKP is a totally crap system that doesn't benefit the raid; it benefits individual players, which is something completely different. A raid is a team effort, hence the TEAM should be put first. Gear should go to the ones with the most need for it, not to the one who raided most times in the past.
That was THEN. Now is now. A need-based system still awards those who raid a lot more over those who do not raid as much, as you have more chances at getting loot. DKP unjustly penalises newcomers and less regular players, the only ones who benefit are those with too much time on their hands who can show up at every raid. As mentioned they don't even neccessarily have to be very good players either, which doubly hurts the team.
rick gregory Mar 19th 2009 2:44AM
We use this... I like it, it's fair and there's an ingame addon so you can see where you stand at anytime.
Tushar Bharadia Mar 19th 2009 5:28AM
Um, how does giving a top-notch piece of loot to a player who then fails to show up for six weeks benefit the raid?
Alastren Mar 19th 2009 10:00AM
EP/GP is fantastic. We've been using it since just before Wrath launched, and we've never had a single issue over loot. It's fair, it's super easy to use, it rewards members who have good attendance--and if you have a semi-intelligent raid leader who consistently invites your best players and rotates out the ones who aren't quite as strong, this means you also end up rewarding the players who will use the gear to the guild's best advantage.
The decay is also entirely optional. We use it and we love it, but I can see how it wouldn't be for every guild.
Joelock Mar 18th 2009 5:13PM
loot council > DKP we're the top guild on my server, and the only person to ever bitch about loot has been outta the guild since like Jan. for other reasons (they were one of those ppl that just NEEDS to complain about something)
I play a class that shares some key drops with a few other classes (wep) and we've all been upgraded along the same line and in a balanced fashion, 3 ppl decide how loot goes out, they do it based on who its the biggest upgrade for and who has put the most effort in towards their character / progression
Sadrine Mar 18th 2009 5:18PM
I remember switching from a "Loot Council" system to a slightly tweaked SuicideKings when my old guild started seriously raiding Molten Core. I still think it's the best loot system out there for raiding guilds that want a no hassle way of dealing with drops. Even among a group of friends, loot drama can still happen.
Telessas Aug 7th 2009 9:41AM
Our guild used the Suicide Kings system right now to great success. Our group is mostly comprised of serious casuals and ex-raiders who were tired of raiding multiple nights a week. We looked at DKP and thought it was much too complicated for our 10 man raids. We still wanted a system to make sure to avoid the RNG generated drama.
We've found Suicide Kings, especially with the great addon, to be very simple and fast. We've modified it just to keep separate lists for the T7s from the rest of the general loot. We now clear Naxx in about 3 hours so as you can bet, loot handling is done very fast and efficiently.
Wolftech Mar 18th 2009 5:21PM
Our guild uses a master looter with a simple roll for need. Our loot rules are simple. Roll if need for main spec, /roll 1-1 for off spec. If you get an upgrade, you may roll on main spec items but your roll is reduced by one (i.e., if you got one item earlier on raid, then you /roll 1-99).
This probably wouldn't work for everyone, but it does for us because we are a close knit group who have been raiding together for a long time. We used to use Suicide Kings, but prior to Wrath we went though some changes and chose not to go back to it.
Eamara Mar 18th 2009 5:25PM
DKP itself doesn't cause drama. Corrupt officers in charge of the system do. My guild chose Suicide Kings when we started raiding 25 mans way back in T4, but ended up dismissing it because of the inflexibility of the system. Either you went 'all in', or you didn't have a chance on the loot. It led to a lot of loot being sharded, because people were waiting for that one special drop.
We've since switched to a variation of DKP (please don't ask me to explain it in detail), and it works almost perfectly. Raiders can bid as much DKP on loot as they want; if they really want an item, they'll bid all their DKP. If it's only a minor upgrade, they'll bid the minimum amount. If someone else wants it more, they'll outbid them and get the item. Essentially the raiders themselves decide on the value of the upgrade to them, not the officers.
DKP is awarded on a time based rule: 5 KP per 30 mins of raiding. Therefore, the more you raid, the more DKP you get, the more loot you get. If you haven't raided as much, you don't get as much loot as the guy who's gone to 100% of the raids. Pretty fair.
As a final note, switching to a DKP system isn't nearly as bad as you may think. So long as the officers tell the guild far in advance of the switch, make the rules clear and simple to follow, and rigidly stick to the rules (not make up new rules halfway through the raid), then there will be next to no issues with the system. It's a lack of communication, corrupt officers, and not following the rules in practice which cause drama, not the system itself.
Khorr Mar 18th 2009 5:25PM
"you can really only go so long without people starting to wonder why the other guy got that roll when he's only been to two raids in the last month when they've been to five"
LOL - who cares. If you came to five and the other guy came to two, you got 5 roles and he got 2. I'll take those odds. The old days of super hard raids that people had to "learn" them are gone. Most competent raiders had those instances on farm after a week or two.
After you have done Naxx or OS or EoE a couple times you are just as good as someone who's been there 100 times unless you are just bad... and if you are worried about bad people rolling on your gear.. don't take them.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Mar 19th 2009 4:52PM
I think you might have missed the boat here. You go more often you have more chances, that's great for you, BUT. I think the big point is that the guy who went less and ended up winning the gear piece over the guy who put more time and effort in.
To me that is annoying if someone who puts less effort in gets rewarded over someone who was diligent and went as often as he could. Doesn't matter if they're good or bad players, it just doesn't seem right. Sure I don't want to penalize that guy who won the roll, but it doesn't still mean that's fair to that other person who went more often then he did and lost to them.