Officers' Quarters: Neros and zeros
by Scott Andrews 
Mar 30th 2009 at 2:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.I can't take credit for the column name -- it was a turn of phrase used by the writer of this week's reader e-mail. It's a fitting expression, as you'll see. He wonders just how to get people to care again when a guild is faltering.
Hey Scott,
Thank you for this column, hopefully you and the comment crowd can help me. Over the last few days I've had to watch my beloved guild start to unravel. Our problem is, apart from a few select officers and members, we have too many Neros, content to fiddle as our guild burns, and Zeros, members who don't really contribute anything but a raid spot. Nobody seems to care enough to even sign up for our website. We have had trouble with our loot system, suicide kings, and raid scheduling, and it has caused some key members to seek other guilding opportunities.
My questions boil down to frustration at what seems to be a a guild that is nothing more than the sum of its parts. Our GM has floated the idea of taking the core and uprooting for greener pastures, but I am not alone in O chat when I express my desire to see the guild survive. I have a few questions to that end. How successful would a bad-ectomy be, that is a surgical removal of the members who don't seem to have the same goals in mind as the officers, or barring that, what are some ways to collect feedback from the members on the state of the guild? Or the biggest question of all, How do I get guild members to care as much about the guild's progression as they do for that of their characters?
--Spencer
Spencer, it's interesting that you use the word "bad-ectomy." It tells me that you believe your guild has a disease that requires a cure -- a disease caused by bad players. You're saying that the lack of caring, the gquits, and other ailments are all symptoms of this disease. But if the bad players are the disease, the officers are the immune system. That means you're responsible for them. You're responsible for inviting them into the guild. You're responsible for letting them ruin the experience for other players. You're responsible for allowing them to raid without pushing them to improve.
Sure, you could remove them like a cancer. However, let's walk down that road a bit. How would you announce such a decision? How would you carry it out? Face to face by telling them, "You suck, please leave"? Gkicks in the middle of the night? Imagine the drama and upheaval either way.
The officers are going to look like jerks no matter how you decide to do this. Not everyone you kick is going to be an outcast, either. You might find that some of your better players stand behind their less-skilled friends and quit, too. Guilds can be a tangled web of relationships. Plucking some threads may unravel everything.
After this "surgery," some of your remaining members may applaud you, but some may wonder if they're next. You've set a precedent you can't take back: perform well in raids or get booted. That's about as hardcore as you can get. Are you willing to lead a guild like that? You might have more successful raids after such an action, but will people have more fun -- or will they worry so much about being the person who causes a wipe that they're too stressed to enjoy themselves? It's a solution with far-reaching consequences.
The other solution your officers are considering is to disband or abandon the guild and start fresh. This decision might be a solution to your problems. Again, it will be a drama-fest for a while, but it could be worth it. But first you should ask yourselves how sure you are about your core players. There seems to be some disagreement about this decision. Are you certain everyone you need in the new guild will follow? It's a risky way to go. You'll certainly alienate everyone you left behind. In fact, you'll probably have to switch servers if you do this or else the bad blood will never really go away.
In my opinion, the best way to save your guild is to find out which members actually care and then work with them to make the guild well again. Talk to these members to find out what they like and don't like about the guild. Ask for suggestions on how to improve it. Talk to your ex-members, too. Try to get an honest reason for why they quit.
Part of getting your members to care is showing them that the officers care. Make a post on your website asking what your members would like to change about the guild. If a member posts, no matter how negative they might be, they're proving they care just by posting, so take that into consideration.
You mentioned that you've had trouble getting people to sign up for the website. The best cure for that is giving them a chance to vent to the officers or to share their opinions about the guild. Announce this post requesting feedback and I can practically guarantee you'll see more people on the site.
After all of your research, if you find out that you need to revamp your loot system or your raiding policies, then do it. If something else turns out to be the issue, fix it. If you need suggestions or manpower, ask the members who identified these problems to help you fix them.
If it all comes back, as you theorize, to your bad players, then you could reconsider the above situations. Or you can offer incentives for those players to improve and the means to do so. Bad players may seem like a disease, but believe it or not they can be a resource. With a little bit of help and guidance, you might be surprised at how quickly they can learn to step up their game. I've seen it happen over and over again.
Most bad players aren't inherently, irrevocably bad. Most are bad because they don't know that what they're doing is subpar. They haven't taken the time to research the best practices for their spec. They may not even know that they can! Also, no one has sat them down and coached them.
As I said above, you are responsible for these bad players in one way or another. Before you take the drastic step of kicking them all out, give them a chance to learn. Now, a bad player can only improve if they want to improve. You can't force someone to learn. With Ulduar releasing soon, it's the perfect time to ask them to try. Make it clear that players who underperform and who haven't shown any effort to do better at their role won't see the inside of Ulduar.
Use class leaders or officers as coaches. Point out class-specific resources on the Web, like this very site. Use tools like Recount or WoW Web Stats to evaluate players in your current runs. Keep track of who is improving and praise them.
A member who refuses to try isn't worth your time. You don't have to kick them. Just don't take them to raids and make it very clear why. The reason shouldn't be that they aren't very good. The reason should be that they're not trying their hardest to play well. It's a world of difference. Even these players are helpful to your cause -- they serve as an example to others about what happens when you don't care.
If you have to look outside the guild to fill slots with hard-working raiders, then do it. More importantly, tell your members that you'll do it. When Ulduar goes live, PUG players will be coming out of the woodwork for a shot at the juicy loot inside. You'll have your pick of the litter. If you have to resort to PUGs, you might even recruit a few good players along the way.
In my opinion, it's much easier to care about a guild where everyone who raids is trying their hardest, regardless of their skill level.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
ROFLAMO Mar 30th 2009 2:05PM
First, it is important to talk to them.
Charlie Mar 30th 2009 2:39PM
Was that a ninja first?
I'm not even going to downrate it if it was, pretty creative.
gassy Mar 30th 2009 7:16PM
Talk to them. Be straight-forward and address the guild as a whole. Explain you are upset about the progression and lack of focus in raid. Tell them if they do not perform, they will be demoted/not invited to next raid/docked dkp/or punished. Dont do the g-kicking just yet, it lowers guild morale big time. You have to follow through with your threats though. Examine recount and wws parses, find out who is doing bad and replace them (either through new recruits or different people available in the guild.
Trust me, the competition and fear of being the "baddie who wipes raids" will either push your guild forward or cause it to implode. On the bright side, if it implodes -- that's kind of where youre at now, only when it comes time to disband it won't really be your fault since you tried but the under-performers were just too much dead weight to handle. If you succeed, then you succeed.
Jane Gray Mar 30th 2009 8:57PM
If they dont sign up for raid, they get last priority on loot for that raid. Say it and mean it. The players that do sign up will feel rewarded and the others will remember to sign up next time. Thats what we had to do and it worked.
Alternately, just use the in game calendar system if people would feel happier doing that. It makes using a guild website for signups superfluous.
ROFLAMO Mar 30th 2009 2:10PM
Second be ready for all bad comments from them just make sure they understand.
Rofllol Mar 30th 2009 2:10PM
YO HO YO HO A PIRATES GUILD FOR ME, WE SWIM WE FIGHT WE DANCE ALL NIGHT, WE EAT SAVORY DEVIATE , WE KILL GOBLINS ALL DAY, JUST TO HELP ALLEVIATE. Yo ho yo ho a pirates guild for me, we don't follow rules we're not ninja's, that's cool. When we gank and kill we walk the plank. We argue all day, about who get's the Tastyfish, which are, by the way, delicious. We fight all day long and earn our hats, eat up ye hearties yo ho!
menglor Mar 30th 2009 2:31PM
With regards to the forums, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.
You need to give them a reason to be there.
The first big incentive is to:
- have members sign up for raiding nights.
- Cancel raiding night if not enough people sign up.
But follow through on the action, dont go out raiding if you threaten to cancel raiding night.
- you can also make it an active policy to delete members who dont have an account on the forums.
but again, people need a reason to want to post there
Rihlsul Mar 30th 2009 3:35PM
Our guild runs special events on our forums.
ATM, we're doing our 'spring celebration', 'Boob Week' (very NSFW). You betcha readership goes up that week.
danawhitaker Mar 30th 2009 4:28PM
The problem with guild websites is...at what point does WoW start to take over your life? I know hardcore dedicated players who have no interest in using guild forums. Ever. They have jobs and families and lives outside the game and when they log out of the game that typically means they don't want to be *thinking* about the game, or getting into pissing matches on guild forums.
That doesn't mean that someone is a bad player or isn't dedicated to the guild. But the guild has a responsibility not to place undue expectations on its members. It's not fair to expect everyone to want to join an out-of-game forum just to be in a guild, and to use it regularly, in addition to expecting them to use a plethora of resources to learn about how to gear properly and use skills properly, etc. The latter, in my opinion, are much more important uses of a player's time than dicking around on guild forums.
What are fair expectations? That you show up, that you don't make everyone wipe repeatedly, that you can contribute in some way to a run with your presence and have a basic idea of how to pla your class, and that you aren't a jerk. Unfair expectations include asking people to please change their work schedule so they can show up to X raid (A cousin of mine had that happen with Everquest), another other such ridiculousness that extends beyond the confines of the game itself into the person's "real" life. If you feel the need to control your players to a significant degree like that, then you probably shouldn't be leading anything.
Lyraat Mar 30th 2009 2:21PM
"If you have to look outside the guild to fill slots with hard-working raiders, then do it. More importantly, tell your members that you'll raiders, then do it. More importantly, tell your members that you'll do it. When Ulduar goes live, PUG players will be coming out of the woodwork for a shot at the juicy loot inside. You'll have your pick of the litter. If you have to resort to PUGs, you might even recruit a few good players along the way."
Win.
Competition will force your bads to get better or leave. You shouldn't necessarily open the floodgates--maintain your current recruitment policies--but a few more people never hurt.
Also, as mentioned, talk to them. Why aren't they using the website? Are there things the members would like to see the officers do? Do they like the loot system or would they rather go to something else? Removing players is easy, but it does not necessarily solve the problem.
xieann Mar 30th 2009 6:56PM
our guild had the same problem and we did exactly what you suggested. we start puging, the ones that worked we invited. soon we had our raiding guild back to top working order and pretty much finished all the contents till the patch.
make them work for there spot in the raid, that way the ones that don;t care won;t slow you down and those that do will work harder.
Chirri Mar 31st 2009 7:12PM
On the one hand, Guilds can feel like families - you know the vast majority of the people reasonably well, you do stuff with them on a regular basis, you help them out (if not all, then at least some). You want to get along, you don't want to be the cause of friction and cause a drama fest.
On the other hand, members can take advantage of this situation (on purpose, or through sheer ignorance because no one's asking them to do other wise), and the higher ups are afraid to rock the boat by becoming demanding or think their only recourse is to completely gut the guild, rather than actually performing the role of being an Officer, or anywhere higher up in the usual hierarchy.
It's the Officers' responsibility to push the guild; it's not the Officers' responsibility to bend over backward to serve the guildies and do things so the other guild members don't have to expend effort.
A foundering guild is not due to "bad" general members.
As others have said, if the guild in generally isn't putting forth the effort they ought to be, let it be known that their raiding spot isn't reserved just for them because they're part of the guild. They get their raiding spots when they earn them. And if they're not earning them? Officers need to do their part to make the choice to have those not bothering to exert effort sit out, and replace them with someone more capable.
If there's no real penalty for under performing, there's no reason to work harder and focus.
If they're still not up to par, it may be time to have a word with them. Ask them why, and whether they feel their goals meet those of the guild. If they do not, discuss with fellow officers whether it's time (on a case by case basis) to ask that member to leave.
My guild has very specific requirements for members, one of them being, "Attend at least one guild raid a week on a regular basis; if you can't do that, we may have to ask you to leave. We'll be happy to invite you back when you're available again in the future." We've had perhaps 1 instance of some drama about a year ago, and that's it.
Sorcefire Mar 30th 2009 2:35PM
I can sympathize with this guy's problem. My partner and I, both players for the last 4 years, joined what appeared to be a fun and exciting guild right before WotLK released. They were running Kara, had done most of the end-game content, and were really keen on helping people get to that same point.
Fast-forward three months and we are still wiping in Arach wing of Naxx (after 4hrs. nonetheless). There are only about four out of ~30 guildies who are really focused on end-game content. The rest seem content to play the AH, run old-world instances for fun, and generally hang out in vent and do nothing important.
Since I am technically an officer (we don't use the term it seems) I've tried to bring this issue up more than one, as have others, and nothing seems to change. Our GL is a good person who is very helpful, but I think that those same qualities prevent him from taking a hard line stance on progression.
I've made some friends in the guild, people I wouldn't mind playing with in the future and my partner and I are both very committed to giving a guild 100%, but right now we are very (very) frustrated and not sure what to do.
We have been scouted and invited by a much better and more focused guild, but we're kind of on the fence about how to leave the current guild (issues and all).
Is it worth it to hang around and hope things get better or should we just /gquit and join this other guild that seems to be headed the direction we want to go?
I don't want to burn any bridges, but I pay for the game the same as everyone and so far very little has been fun for me. Thoughts? Suggestions?
rick gregory Mar 30th 2009 2:46PM
No. It's not worth it. If you want to raid and they guild you're in doesn't care you have a mismatch. That doesn't mean they're bad people, but their interests in the game are not yours. My mid-range guild can clear Arachnid in under 30 mins (20 occasionally). We raid 2x a week and while most of the players are good most of us are not uber hardcore etc. Spending 4 hours in there is incompetence.
Ultimately you play to have fun. A guild is there to make the game more fun. If it's not doing that and it's not moving in that direction, leave.
Lyraat Mar 30th 2009 2:53PM
Sounds like you (and your partner) and your guild are headed in different directions. I would switch guilds. Just say "You guys and gals are great. But we want to raid more and we don't see this guild as going in that direction. Nothing wrong with that." Something simple like that.
Normally, I would suggest trying to salvage something, but wipes on the Arachnid quarter for 4 hours? 4 out of 30 who want to progress? Time to leave.
Guin Mar 30th 2009 6:40PM
You might want to try a guild alliance with another guild who has 4-5 members who want to progress.
In BC, our guild was having abysmal results with raid attendance and progression. Mind you we started late, but we had only cleared about 2/3 of kara by Patch 3.0.
Fast forward to WotLK, we've made a guild alliance with a smallish guild and the attendance problems are solved. There is competition for raid spots and a few players who basically had raid spots just by showing up are being left out.
Of course, it's my hope that they improve, but you can only coach someone so much before you get frustrated. And they will still sometimes get spots when some of us can't show.
Now, I'm not entirely happy with our progression, but we're definitely not spending 4 hours in Arachnid... LOL
sinthar Mar 31st 2009 7:22AM
While its noones fault, if they cleared 'end game' in TBC, but cant clear naxx now, something is VERY VERY wrong. As an example, my guild has an 'alts' run. My alt (a newly dinged Prot pally) got a few pieces of gear, then ended up MT naxx. Our blue/green geared ALTS cleared 2 wings in 2 hours.
IMO you should 'jump ship'. Theres nothing for you there, and at the rate they are going they may just get into EoE when most ppl are finishing Uldar
j Mar 30th 2009 2:37PM
How is it that the officers have the same goal, but very few of the guild members do? Communication sounds like its an issue. Additionally, recruiting players simply to get the warm body to fill the 25mans can result in poor players with bad habits, lack of consideration and the unfortunate need to keep them to attempt goals.
Leadership is key. It sounds like your guild is stagnant and the members have no idea what the purpose of their guild is. Casual doesnt meant complacent. Your guild still needs structure, goals and members absolutely need to know what is expected of them. It is also necessary for leaders to enforce that structure by example.
Website activity can be enhanced by putting the schedule for the week there - with assignments. If members dont check it they miss their raid spot. If you dont have enough showing up, you go back to ten mans, heroics, etc.
Kicking people out to save your guild is really a last measure in my opinion. You might as well disband if you go down that road.
You cannot make anyone care for their guild as much as you do. Even a guild leader. Guild Leadership, as tough as it may be to face, sounds like the real issue here. Perhaps a new sheriff in town, with a renewed focus and enthusiasm could be just what the doctor ordered.
uncaringbear Mar 30th 2009 6:23PM
The above was the best comment so far. I've seen more than one guild fail because the leadership was convinced that it was the members who were all at fault, without stopping to examine if the root cause was not actually themselves.
Never forget that the officers and the GM are there to provide leadership, set goals and help motivate the team to accomplish those goals. If your guildies are unclear on what the guild is trying to achieve then there is a clear failure of communication.
Minehowe Mar 30th 2009 2:49PM
Does 'bad' mean low skill? Spencer asks how feasible it would be to remove "the members who don't seem to have the same goals in mind as the officers", not "the players with low dps and stupid specs who stand in the fire". Interesting that that's the first thing people think of though (including Scott, it seems).
I would suggest that discussion on the guild forum, followed by laying out the vision of the officers and those guildies who bothered to respond constructively to the discussion post would be one way to go.
He could reward the people who do participate in guild life the way the officers would like everyone to do - for some reason, ranks seem to motivate people - and if absolutely necessary enforce certain minimum levels of participation. For example, if one aim is to get people to help each other through heroics for gear/rep, then he could allocate raid slots according to helpfulness (among other criteria of course) and not draft the particularly unhelpful people. This won't change the naturally selfish people, but it will encourage the people who were just lacking motivation or who "just didn't think".
Some suggestions anyway.