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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news25-man gear should not be better than 10-man gear
by Eliah Hecht 
Mar 31st 2009 at 9:00PM
| 10-man | ilvl | 25-man |
| Naxx | 200 | |
| KT, EoE | 213 | Naxx |
| Ulduar | 219 | |
| Ulduar hard | 226 | Ulduar, KT/EoE |
| 232 | Ulduar weapons | |
| 239 | Ulduar hard |
So successful, in fact, that when Burning Crusade came along, there were no more 40-man raids - only 10 and 25. At the beginning, the only 10-man was BC's entry-level raid, Karazhan. Everything else, from the small T4 raids (Gruul, Magtheridon) on up through T6, was exclusively 25-man. Notably, Gruul and Mags returned the same quality of rewards as KZ. Eventually a second 10-man raid (Zul'Aman) was introduced, with roughly a T5 level of difficulty, and of rewards.
Blizzard noticed that people really liked these 10-man raids. And so it came to pass that in the current expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, every raid instance is available in both 10- and 25-man versions. However, in a departure from all previous tradition, the 10- and 25-man instances at the same tier (which is to say, T7, at the moment) reward different levels of gear: Naxx-10 gives you ilvl 200 epics, whereas Naxx-25 rewards you with ilvl 213.
Actually, saying that raids at the same tier reward different gear was slightly misleading of me. In actuality, the 10- and 25-man versions of raids in Wrath are tuned a tier (13 ilvls) apart. In the terminology of prior versions of WoW, if Naxx-10 is a T7 raid, we ought to call Naxx-25 T8. Ulduar-10 would then also be T8, and Uld-25 would be T9. We don't use names like this probably because the "tier" designation is related to tier sets that drop in raids, and the Naxx-25 T7.5 set is obviously more similar to the Naxx-10 T7.0 set than to the Uld-10 T8.0 set.
However, this is mostly a technicality. The take-away point is that in Wrath, the developers seem to have decided that 25-man raiding is better than 10-man raiding. It rewards better gear. And in Ulduar (which is of course the centerpiece of the upcoming 3.1 patch), this difference sharpens, since as far as I can tell there is no way to get the new legendary healer mace, Val'anyr, by doing 10-man raids.
The information thus far is that the Fragments of Val'anyr (of which you combine 30 to form the mace itself, reminiscent of Atiesh) drop mainly from hard-mode 25-man bosses, with a smaller chance to drop from non-hard-mode 25-man bosses. (Please correct me in the comments if you know this to be incorrect.) Which means if you're a healer in a 25-man raiding guild who's willing to put in some effort, you can probably get Val'anyr sooner or later. But if you're in a 10-man raiding guild, simply put, you're flat our of luck (unless you want to do a lot of pugs, I guess).
In my opinion, there is no justification for this. A common argument is that 25-mans are harder, and thus 25-man raiders "deserve" better gear. In my experience, this is absolutely false; the bits of 25-man Naxx that I've done I could practically have slept through, and 10-man Sarth with 3 drakes is generally accepted as the toughest fight in the game right now. This may be different in Ulduar (I haven't tried it on the PTR), but I doubt it - the more raiders you have, the more room for slack.
Another argument is that the 25-mans require more time investment. This is true to the extent that it's simply harder to wrangle 25 AFK-happy, incompatible-schedule-having raiders than 10 of them. But if that alone is enough to command better rewards, every guild leader who's ever held a guild meeting should get free epics. We should be rewarding skill, not suffering. This is related to the argument that 10-man raids are for "casuals", while 25-man raids are for "hardcore" players.
The third major argument in favor of the gear disparity between 10- and 25-mans, and a very telling one, is that if 10s had rewards equal to 25s, nobody would do the 25s. The only reason I can think of for this is that 25s are less fun to organize and/or to play that 10s. But should Blizzard really be using gear to incentivize players to do less fun content?
Note that I'm not advocating for free epics here. Reward should be proportional to effort. But reward should not necessarily be proportional to pain, which seems to be the idea behind the third argument.
I'll cut to the chase here: 25s are no harder than 10s, and not inherently better in any way that I can see. It's time to stop discriminating between the two. Let 10s and 25s reward the exact same quality of gear, and let the players' choice on which raid size to run be motivated by how many of their friends they want to play with, or the size of their guild, or what kind of a raiding environment they like, not the lure of better gear. And as an added bonus, you no longer have to itemize 10s and 25s separately if you don't want to.
If this leads to 25s being virtually abandoned, honestly, I see no problem with that. Let the most fun content win out. You don't see many people doing Heroic Oculus - should we make all drops in it 6 ilvls higher? To me, the answer is an obvious no. Instead, fix the content to make it more fun.
I don't, as it happens, think that changing 10s and 25s to drop the same gear would lead to an abandonment of 25s. There are lots of players out there who like the environment and the action of a 25-man raid, and there are lots of guilds built around that size of group. I seriously doubt everyone will suddenly start doing 10s just because their stats are no longer better than everyone else's.
Incidentally, this provides a solution to a concern about achievements that is currently under debate in the PTR forums. The realm-first achievements for Ulduar-10 were removed under concerns that 25-man guilds would pop into Uld-25 to get a few epics and then go back and clobber Uld-10, reaping the achievements. This is not behavior that Blizz wants to promote, so they pulled the Uld-10 realm firsts. If Uld-10 and Uld-25 rewarded the same gear, this would no longer be a possible strategy.
They are apparently planning to implement an achievement for defeating Algalon without having any gear of greater ilvl than Uld-10 hard modes (226), but we still don't get any realm-firsts in 10-man raiding, while the 25-man raiders do. Yeah, I'm whining a bit, but it is a disparity, and it does give the chance of a greater reward (a realm first) for easier content.
When I was hashing out this argument with the WoW Insider team, Alex and Rossi were very passionate that awarding the same gear from 10s that you do from 25s would kill 25-man raiding, despite the fact that many players prefer 25s. The reason for this would be that 25s take more time (which I'm not disagreeing with), and that players will optimize their play for greatest character advancement per time. In other words, if you can raid Uld-10 in 3 hours for gear of ilvl X, nobody is going to take the 4 hours to raid Uld-25 for gear of the same ilvl, no matter how much more they may prefer the 25-man-raiding environment.
This argument is reasonable, and Ghostcrawler appears to agree with it (or at least agree that the death of 25-man raiding would result from gear parity). However, I just don't buy it. I think that as long as the reward rate disparity isn't huge (as it is with current arenas, leading to their unpopularity), people will play what they want - if they like 25-man raiding, they'll do it. I don't think raiders aren't motivated by gear - they clearly are - but I also don't think they're solely motivated by gear. Other factors are at play.
For my 25-man-raiding constituency, I have make a pair of polls to test my hypothesis. These are obviously very unconclusive and unscientific, but I would appreciate your responses nonetheless. 10-man raiders or non-raiders, please refrain from voting; I'd like to keep these polls as representative as I can.
| Yes | |
|---|---|
| No |
| Yes | |
|---|---|
| No |
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 21)
rosencratz Apr 1st 2009 3:40AM
But that's the point, to make ten mans as hard as 25 mans would defy the point.
the blues have stated repeatedly that when 10 mans are harder than 25 man that it is not intended and shouldn't happen again. You should not expect 10 man ulduar to be harder than 25 man ulduar, nor should you expect it to be "tuned" to be just as hard.
25 mans exist because large scale raiding is what end game raiding is about, always has been. They added in 10 man versions of 25 man raids to give smaller guilds a chance to see more stuff and this article and those that approve of it just goes to show how unappreciative people are of this. I say if people want 10 mans to have the same loot as 25 then cut the 10 man versions. Clearly blizz are being too generous by tuning all their raid encounters twice.
I mean if you guys won't ever run 25 man runs anyway, because they're "not as fun" and "way too easy", why do you need 25 man ilevel gear anyway?
Eh? Apr 1st 2009 6:28AM
I happen to agree with the others who think something like this should never happen.
I was excited when blizzard announced they were making 10-man versions of all the raids; because then it would mean my small guild would be able to see all the content rather than hear about the experience vicariously.
While the gear is nice, to my guild, it's just icing on the cake. Generally our reaction to a piece of 25-man gear is "Ooooooh, nice, gratz!" and then turn right around and plan what we want to see next as a 10-man.
The only thing I don't necessarily agree with is completely removing the possibility of getting the legendary weapon from 10-man. What they could do instead is, instead of it being a guaranteed splinter drop off the hard mode bosses and a chance to drop in the other bosses in the 25-man, to make the splinters be a 50% or less chance to drop off the 10-man hard mode bosses ONLY. Period. It would make it more difficult for a 10-man group to make the weapon, but at least it wouldn't be impossible, while also giving the more hardcore groups another reason to run the 10-mans as well.
Keldaron Apr 1st 2009 1:52PM
Thank you for this. This is something that i've been pondering on for awhile, and your thoughts seem to reflect mine very well. Maybe Blizzard will actually consider changing this, or at making the iLvl on the 10mans and 25mans largely negligible.
Carigon Mar 31st 2009 9:16PM
One sad thing about the survey at the end of this is that it doesnt reflect WHY my friends and i wouldnt do the 25 mans.... its not because i mind the extra time it takes or anything, but the 25 mans just arent as FUN. you can't talk in vent. you cant joke around. if you wipe, its too big a deal.
Freedomfighter Mar 31st 2009 9:19PM
The way blizzard has done 25 mans, I do see them as inherently more difficult.
1. It is harder to guarantee people will do the right thing when you have 25 people. Especially when doing the wrong thing kills the raid in some way. There is a reason Undying is a lot more common than Immortal.
2. 25 mans are generally built with a higher gear and skill requirement. Normally, they require higher DPS from individual players, or add additional mechanics, like MC on KT.
syco Mar 31st 2009 9:17PM
I don't do 25 mans much, the only 25 man gear I have is the Staff of Restraint from a Sarth+0d pug (I rolled 100, woo). So obviously I would love for there not to be this gear distinction between the two, but if you look at it from a RP perspective it makes sense, kinda. 25 man bosses are harder, they have more hit points, they do more damage, it takes more people to bring them down. It stands to reason they have better stuff than their clones in the alternate dimension of the 10man raid.
jrizutko Apr 1st 2009 12:16PM
From an RP standpoint, it should be much much harder to beat any given boss with half as many people. Hit points are not an RP concept. Heroic mode is not an RP concept.
jimonaxe Mar 31st 2009 9:21PM
completely disagree. I think 25 man raids are a v important element to end game content. 40 man was nuts, admittedly. but i think blizz have struck it right with the current raid setup
Bartuc Mar 31st 2009 9:19PM
It seems to me that either you have only started playing recently and have an excellent grasp of the history of the game or you have only been in a particular role for a length of the game. Your arguments are very well thought out and particularly persuasive, but you are missing a key element. The 25 man content of Wrath has different bosses than the 10 man content of Wrath does. This may seem confusing at first if you only play as a healer and to some extent a dps. You see the fight from the perspective of this person takes damage or that person does X amount of damage. The tank on the other hand sees an entirely different fight than yourself. For the tank, Patchwerk 10 and Patchwerk 25 are two entirely different fights. On the 10 man, the fight requires less tanks and less coordination because as long as your hp keeps getting topped you are taking the hatefuls as the offtank, and also the damage is very different. On the 25 man, the fight requires 3 tanks and of those tanks there must be similar top end health values or one of the tanks in particular will be taking the vast majority of the hatefuls. The nuances of boss fights and "trash" mobs for a tank from 10 to 25 are noticeable. IF you gear a tank for a 10 man with 25 man gear, then you will see a significant reduction of the level of difficulty. In this case, in addition to your already mentioned reasons you would need to consider how foolish it would be to do 25 man content when the 10 man version is more simple, less difficult, and takes 15 less people IF it gave the same gear.
Arashikou Mar 31st 2009 9:39PM
This is absolutely true. There are aspects of 25-man raiding that ARE harder than 10-man. To my eyes, this article has put the cart before the horse: the failing is not in offering better gear but in NOT offering a higher challenge so that the better gear is justified. Right now, only some members of the raid have it tougher on 25-man. Others even have it easier. It's no secret Blizz intended to make 25-man harder than 10-man - as the article says, that's their justification for seperate gear - they just haven't got it working yet.
What I am worried about is that Blizz hasn't signalled that they are aware of this disparity between what they intended to do and what they've done. I'd feel a lot better about this whole mess if Blizz at least acknowledged that right now, 25-man is only harder than 10-man for some members of the raid.
rosencratz Apr 1st 2009 3:56AM
They have admitted it loads Arashikou...
What i want to know is why 10 man raid runners want ilevel gear that 25 man raid runners get?
The 10 man stuff is tuned for ten man raiding, so ten man naxx runners can do 10 man naxx and then 10 man icecrown,etc. The only reason people could want higher ilevel gear from 10 man is because they want to exert less effort for larger stats... numbers, that's it. They claim it's more "fun" if it were more fun they wouldn't complain about the reward, the extra enjoyment would be reward enough.
This is just greed to the n'th degree, trolls have seen an oppurtunity where they think whining on this subject at this time might net them better stuff. Do not let them win.
Hard mode ten man bosses award 25 man level gear i believe, this is fair enough to me.
Grinton Apr 1st 2009 8:08AM
The result that I draw from your article is that simply the gear should be the same level between the two, but that a greater amount of gear drop in 25s, perhaps more so then currently, so that Loatheb or whoever drops three shoulders for 25 and just one for 10, something along those lines.
Catiya of Feathermoon Mar 31st 2009 9:20PM
Whole heartedly agree and I've been saying this since Wrath began. I pretty successfully ran a 10-man that cleared all raid content (not three man sarth, however), I've only done one or two 25 man's this expansion. The few that I have done felt much easier than the 10-mans, I have to say.
With 10 people, there's so much less room for error than when you've got 25 people.
admrq Mar 31st 2009 9:21PM
Great article! I am a first time poster here, but have been playing the game for over 4 years. I like the thought process.
What about this for discrepancy 10v25. Keep the iLevel the same, but instead, scale drops and tokens.
Example drop 1 more tier peice, 1 more epic and every other boss another token.
Thoughts?
Namus Mar 31st 2009 9:34PM
Totally agree with you, if 25 man bosses drops more loot from the same loot table as the 10 man, larger guilds would have their incentive to run them so they can get more people geared at the same time without waiting an extra week for a reset and everybody would be able to choose between either version without feeling left out of the "true" endgame.
Rusalka Mar 31st 2009 9:20PM
Hear hear.
Our guild typically runs 2 10-man Naxx groups per weekend but can't field a 25. Having maxxed out my ilevel 200 gear options on two characters, I'm now having to pug Naxx 25 twice a week in order to get any upgrades.
Now GC says (essentially) that Ulduar 25 will not be puggable, removing even that option.
I would *much* rather 10 and 25 gave equal loot. Some 10-man fights are easier, some harder, on balance they're about the same. Bigger != better.
Tucker Apr 1st 2009 1:03AM
If you've maxed out the gear you can get from 10-man Naxx, then you're right where you're supposed to be for 10-man Ulduar. If you can't field the people for 25-man raids, then you don't need 25-man raid loot to keep going in your guild's progression.
It seems like a lot of people are missing the whole separate progression. Now personally, I couldn't really care less what the ilvls are like between the two, but if they tune things properly (which they admit they haven't done, and have claimed they will fix for Ulduar) then why all the worry about being able to pug Ulduar? You have a guild that raids in 10-mans, you have all the 10-man gear from this tier, that means you're ready to step into the next 10-man raid.
If you PvP, then it may matter. If they don't have appropriate arena rewards, you may have to run Uld-25.
jam Mar 31st 2009 9:21PM
I agree 100%.
10-mans are both harder and a lot more fun than 25-mans.
The rewards should be equal.
Bod Mar 31st 2009 9:23PM
I completely agree, we've been saying for a while in our guild that gear, and badges, should be the other way around. In other words it's frequently HARDER to do 10 man content than it is to do 25. Grobbulus for examples is significantly harder, though that's true of most of the nax fights.
Only fight I can think of that's harder on 25 is malygos, and then only coz you need to train more drake riders.
Unfortunately I voted against your proposal, there's no way we'd run 25s if the gear was equivalent to 10 mans, why bother with the logistics of 25s, we'd just run more 10 man gps. So you answered your own point mate - 25 gear is not there as a reward for harder content, it's there as an incentive to organise larger raids.
bod Mar 31st 2009 9:23PM
nope, you are, he already implied that gear variance is a blizzard bribe. You just didn't read.