Encrypted Text: Weapons make the Rogue
Every Wednesday, Chase Christian of Encrypted Text invites you to enter the world of shadows, as we explore the secrets and mechanics of the Rogue class. This week, we discuss the role that speed plays in Rogue weapon choices.No matter the encounter, Rogues really only have one true role: DPS. While there's trick fights like Gluth and Sartharion where Anesthetic Poison come in handy, we're designed to take down a boss as quickly as possible. In PvP, we're defined by our ability to create short opportunities to execute a wounded opponent. With damage as our one and only purpose, it becomes crucial that we maximize our DPS output.
Min-maxing stats and using a spreadsheet for every single gem will help you squeeze the most out of your character, but you're still limited by the gear that you've got. Many Rogues, including myself, even use raiding gear in PvP. While we can overcome much of a "gear gap" by playing to our finest, there are simply things that we can't accomplish without the right tools: weapons (not gear) make the Rogue. Due to some great luck with drops over the past couple weeks, I've had a chance to pick up a few of the best Rogue weapons currently in-game. After the cut, I talk about my new experiences on the top of the Rogue weapon food chain.
Hailstorm:
Malygos seems to love dropping Hailstorms for my guild. Over the past month, we've seen a Hailstorm every week. I was lucky enough to pick up the first one, and after a quick talent detour down the Combat tree, I was ready to try out the infamous Combat Shiv spec. I was able to do far more DPS than my previous Combat spec using Kel'Thuzad's Reach and Librarian's Paper Cutter. Because of the way that Shiv and Sword Spec interact, this build really only works with Hailstorm. It's 0.1s faster than any other Sword offhand, and therefore not only does it cost less energy to use Shiv with Hailstorm, we also get a chance at an extra attack. Because the quicker Webbed Death is a dagger, it simply doesn't work in the offhand with this build.
Originally, I was taken aback by the idea that without this one particular weapon, the build wasn't competitive with Mutilate. Combat Shiv has been on the receiving end of several nerfs, ever since it was originally conceived in TBC. What appears to be the killing blow, the inability of Shiv and any poison procs from Shiv to crit, should finally see this spec in the grave. With the cards stacked against it by Blizzard, Shiv only really works now with the perfect storm of weapon speed and type.
Webbed Death:
On my Rogue, I haven't done much 25 man raiding (outside of OS/EOE/VOA), simply because my guild is very small and focused on 10 man content. Most of my raiders haven't fought Heroic Kel'Thuzad, while we recently achieved the Undying title in last week's raid. So when I was approached to run Heroic Naxxramas with a larger guild, I was thrilled at the opportunity to run with an organized group instead of the PUGs that I had typically rolled with.
After Anub'Rekhan fell, I was disappointed to see that no Webbed Death had dropped. However, I was treated to a surprise when the raid leader announced that Gluth had left one behind. I of course picked it up as quickly as I could. I was skeptical as to how much of a difference Webbed Death could make over my current dual Librarian's Paper Cutters, which were nearly best-in-slot blues due to their speeds. The answer was nearly 150 DPS from this single weapon alone. I am still imagining my DPS if I were lucky enough to score two.
Sinister Revenge:
Later on that same fateful Naxxramas raid, I was able to pick up the ultimate piece of Rogue loot: Sinister Revenge. With its whopping ilvl 226 stats and inflated DPS, it actually becomes best-in-slot for Mutilate PvE, and an easy champion for Mutilate PvP. I called up a friend of mine who plays a Mage as soon as I equipped it, and we immediately played a few 2v2 arena matches to test it out.
The difference in offensive pressure that I can apply with Sinister Revenge (with a new Anarchy in my OH) versus what I was able to do with dual Broken Stalactites is simply insane. I never felt I had the ability to pressure a healer into using cooldowns by myself, or take down a target during a Counterspell or Blind. Mutilates were doing far more damage, even though the bulk of my leather and accessory gear hadn't changed a bit. With this Sinister Revenge in my MH, we were able to drop Priests with Pain Suppression up and Rogues who were caught out of stealth without much trouble.
The true test came in our first Paladin / DK matchup. While my partner did his best to lead the DK away, I was able to get a clean open on the Paladin. A single Mutilate was enough to convince him to that I was a threat, and he used Hammer of Justice to stun me and ran for his partner. I immediately trinketed his stun, and used my Nitro Boosts to close the gap. He was having trouble removing Crippling Poison, and so once I had caught up, he used Hand of Freedom to try to escape. A quick Improved Kidney Shot later, and I was able to drop him from 60% to 0% before he could use his Divine Shield. Don't worry, his shadowfrost partner had already finished the mage and was working on destroying me. They took the match.
Speed:
The fact that the speed of a Rogue's weapon now makes a far bigger difference than the stats or DPS of the weapon make our options as raiders very limited. There are two options for quick daggers: the LPC and Webbed Death. This means that there is really only a single source of viable Rogue daggers for Mutilate builds. Combat is in a similar state: without Calamity's Grasp or Hailstorm, it currently falls way behind Mutilate in PvE. This is a big paradigm shift from the Combat days where any slower weapon would be okay, if used in the main hand.
Blizzard has been very perceptive of this trend, and is implementing some changes in Ulduar that should greatly alleviate the idea that there is only a single viable weapon for any spec. Combat is being buffed to perform better without requiring the best of hard mode loot, while Shiv spec is being neutered to prevent very quick weapons from becoming too valuable. The PPM change to poisons affects Mutilate in a similar way, where Rogues can now consider using slower daggers (probably in the OH). This greatly expands the Rogue weapon loot table from 2-3 items to possibly 5-10 in Ulduar.
I believe that Blizzard made the right choice on this issue. Rather than simply add more 1.4 speed daggers and 1.5 speed swords, they fixed the root cause that was plaguing everyone with bad luck or who didn't have access to Naxxramas 25. With Death Knight and Holy Paladin nerfs on the way and a patch full of fresh content to explore, I am excited about seeing patch 3.1 in the next two weeks!
Filed under: Rogue, Items, Classes, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Arkeband Apr 8th 2009 3:41PM
Also, 2 webbed deaths is better if you stack more Agility (re: use Blackened Dragonfin), and Sinister Revenge is better if you stack more attack power (re: using Mega Mammoth Meal).
That seemed to tip the spreadsheet toward either, and like you said, 2-3 dps. I imagine SR might be a little stronger in 3.1 due to armor penetration's buff.
Either way, two fast daggers was fun while it lasted, but I really did miss being able to use daggers named "Mutilator" for Mutilate. :P
Kryxx Apr 8th 2009 4:03PM
I stack AP and two Webbed gives me the most dps. Even better w/ dual IP, if there's another rogue or hunter to keep a poison up for the Mutilate dmg bonus. I have nearly all best in slot items and stacking agility ALWAYS decreases my dps.
It's pretty sad that the "best" dagger in the game (Sinister) isn't actually the best, since Blizz failed to balance instant poison properly. This looks to be changing in 3.1, fortunately.
Also, a shiv spec should NEVER be a viable option. If it is, it means Blizz screwed up. They have stated that shiv is never intended to be a combo point builder when raiding.
shane Apr 8th 2009 3:47PM
Why have the completely abandoned combat swords? There are what ... 2 high end swords off 25 Naxx? And looking at upcoming drops from 3.1, I don't see a single viable MH sword (there is one caster sword, whoop!).
So ... why not just remove the sword spec from Combat tree and say they don't want rogues to use swords?
Allenny Apr 8th 2009 4:14PM
Sword specialization died that why combat gave up swords. The last time I held swords those 5 points were earning 2% of my overall damage.
Grab you a fist weapon MH and a fast dagger OH then move those 5 points over to Close quarters Combat for the Crit increase and watch your dps jump.
Not mentioned here is "Greed". It drops off the last boss in Culling of Strathholme. If you not visiting Kel'Thuzad yet, this would be the MH to chase after.
Shade Apr 8th 2009 4:44PM
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?item=45266
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?item=45331
...you were saying?
Arkeband Apr 8th 2009 3:52PM
There are only two top-end daggers that drop there that I've seen, and the models are fucking ugly, it looks like they actually mismapped the textures, or else it's supposed to look like a striped, dull hunk of steel.
Roland Apr 8th 2009 4:01PM
There's a third dagger option for PvE Mutilate: Murder off of Sapphiron on Heroic is better than LPC and slightly worse than Webbed Death, so equip it if you're still looking for WDx2. I don't think Sinister Revenge has been close to Webbed Death ever since they nerfed Mutilate's bonus damage in 3.08 - it's definitely *not* best in slot - because of the .4 difference in speed. If your Instant Poison is doing virtually the same amount of damage as Mutilate, as seems to be the case in most parses, the high base damage of Sinister Revenge can't compensate for its 1.8 speed.
Despite recently paying for my second WD's Berserking (and third overall), I'm looking forward to slow daggers being viable again for PvE. The fact that Murder and Twilight Mist have the exact same stats, aside from weapon speed, yet the former is miles better for PvE, is pretty absurd. The fact that a blue BoE is third best in slot is even more silly.
Z28SSC Apr 8th 2009 4:19PM
Not true. Murder is inferior in the offhand to both WD and SR which are essentially a coin flip. Send Murder to the abyss crystal pile where it belongs.
Roland Apr 8th 2009 6:46PM
When I said "an option," I didn't mean BIS, so I don't see how that's untrue.
Shadow Panther ranks Murder as the second-best MH, and third-best OH: http://shadowpanther.net/weapons-pve.htm
In any case, my comment was directed more towards those without two Webbed Deaths / Sinister Revenges. I personally went from 2xLPC -> LPC/Murder -> WD/Murder -> WD/WD. So DE it if both your hands have WDs, otherwise I'd be happy if one dropped (and I was).
art-boy Apr 8th 2009 4:23PM
I have Liberian's Paper Cutter in my main hand and Murder in my off hand. With 3.1 will i finally be able to use Anarchy in my MH? Or would it be be more desirable to have Murder in my MH and Anarchy in my OH? Anarchy has been sitting in my bank for weeks, it sucks that a blue dagger is taking the place of a 213 level dagger just because its faster...
3rd Eye Apr 8th 2009 5:43PM
The issue I see not being mentioned, and pertains directly to this article, is their attempt to basically kill sword spec. There are NO BiS MH swords. Not even Deadly items compare to the upper daggers and fists. No matter what gear you get, there are no MH BiS swords, Torment of the Banished & Silent Crusader are about it, until Ulduar, when they'll add a whopping ONE more (Malice). Silent Crusader is ilvl 213, Malice will be 232. As a Combat Sword Rogue, I can either be forced to go dagger, or suffer with massively nerf'd DPS. Being a Rogue, and ending up JUST ahead of SOME of the tanks on DPS, is enough to casue frothing at the mouth, and serious issues with pugging since you bring such crappy DPS. Needless to say, the coming changes to Combat are more then slightly aggravating because of it. Combat is arguably AIMED at swords, and in theory, it should remain able to put out sane dps. When the best MH you can get pre-naxx is a blue (Reaper of Dark Souls), they've clearly made that impossible.
-One pissed off CS Rogue.......
Khal Apr 8th 2009 4:33PM
I've been fiddling with spreadsheets and I'm still a bit confused about what to do in the week to two before 3.1. After that, the terrain of decision is a bit different.
I had been doing mutilate with two LPCs and seeing that I was having trouble keeping up with combat-spec rogues of approximately similar gear. When I got Greed, I switched to combat, and I luckily got a WD after that. Big jump in DPS with Greed + LPC, bigger jump with Greed + WD.
When I got Murder, I tried switching back to mutilate. My DPS fell off considerably. Maybe it was partly because I was rusty on HFB rotations, but I don't think so. When I got Angry Dread because no one else wanted it, I decided to give that a go as MH, WD as offhand, back to combat. Huge jump in DPS from Murder/WD as Mut. (And better than Greed/WD too, despite the lack of a meaningful benefit from mace specialization.)
Then I got Sinister Revenge while desperately hoping for Calamity's Grasp. I messed around with it a bit. In a PvP Mutilate spec? BAM. Wow. Now I know what I'll be doing after dual spec. In a PvE mutilate spec (WD/SR and SR/WD)? Weirdly, I'm still doing better with Combat AD/WD, it seems to me. Again, maybe it's just because I got tired of the obsessive-compulsive tending to HFB. I tried messing around with a combat dagger build that would have me SR/WD but that doesn't seem to work either.
I mean, I'm not hurting no matter how you slice it: 3-4k dps output. But until 3.1, it doesn't seem to me that SR is what it looks like it should be for PvE...and that I'm still looking for Calamity's Grasp.
Philip Apr 8th 2009 5:56PM
It's interesting that some rogues are unaware: Mutilate was never meant to be a gimmicky, FotM spec. Once upon a time you wielded two slow daggers, and chased druids around hoping to kill them sometime in the next day or so.
Then Deadly Brew and the buff to poisons showed up. I don't blame rogues for playing the spec with the fast daggers. It's Blizzard's fault for screwing the spec up. But it was never meant to be the way it currently is. It's just further proof that Blizz cherry picks who and what its player base will be using/specc'ing.
Speaking of: Anyone have any idea when Blizz is finally going to being Hemo up to speed by updating the armor ignore? Hemo is still the only talent I know of that goes by a flat number of armor pen, vs the percentage that other classes seem to be getting.
And for the record Chase: try Hemo spec out with Calamity's Grasp/Webbed death. At iLvl 213 average gear in each slot, hemo is tons of fun to play, just like in the old days (s1-4). Crappy for arena tho.
Supernaut Apr 8th 2009 6:51PM
/sigh
I can only dream of webbed death. Never so much as seen one drop in my pugs, yet I've seen hunters dual wielding them.. argh!
Muntwagon Apr 8th 2009 8:59PM
so the other day I get into a partially cleared naxx25 pug. Before we start I get kicked from the raid because I'm "undergeared"
I'm running 2pcT7.5 and 2pcT7 with epics in just about all my slots. Best gems/enchants etc.
reason I was kicked is because the other rogue in the raid told the RL my 2xLPCs just werent good enough. The other rogue was combat with KTs Reach and a Hatestrike.
....I have a KTs Reach and a Hailstorm in my bags but I just prefer Mut.
Camped their raid instance for the next hour after that
Lemons Apr 8th 2009 9:47PM
Weapons do make the rogue, and for the first time in my entire life as a rogue I can say I have the best dagger in the game (Sinister Revenge)! wewtz!
Anywho, yea...rogues are all about the weapons. I think caster classes can get away with having crappy weapons and still pwning but if your a rogue your pwnage is almost directly proportional to the weapons your packing. Every other upgrade you get is pretty boring, but when u pick up a new weapon you can really feel it.
Allenny Apr 9th 2009 1:31AM
You bet yer ass you can feel it. Bezerker costs about 2000g on my server LOL
maxi Apr 9th 2009 3:09AM
I'm very looking that I have been in a top raiding guild on my server so access to top gear was not a problem. Also When I joined them there were only the two of us rogues, so we got spoilt.
For PVP I use 3/SR and 1Murder (one SR and Murder have Weapon chains on them for fighting warriors and other rogues).
For Pve I use dual WD's but as soon as 3.1 hits ill be using duel SR.
Into Uldar ill prob play about with combat on farm content once i pick up a Calamity's Grasp, naturally ill pair this with one of my WD's before the patch and a SR post 3.1.
Like any kit always use a spreadsheet to work out what is going to fit/scale the best with you're set up. Don't take peoples word that X vs Z is better cos it may not be for you.
Vulajin's is the best sheet I know of over at EJ's:
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t27244-roguecraft_spreadsheet/
M. )
jmjm Apr 9th 2009 11:46AM
Gluth left a Webbed Death behind -- and you didn't know earlier it had dropped? Were you there for the fight? I mean, it just sounds odd that it wasn't picked up for DE or even to vendor.
?
RAEGLATEM Apr 9th 2009 1:32PM
First of all congrats on the new gear (i remember when I got my SR like it was yesterday). I simply can't wait to get another SR since apparently dual wieldng those looks like it will be the top dps setup. But yeah, I'm glad that ulduar will be opening up our variety in weapons. Now if only i could get myself an epic helm (Still rocking a blue and I still out dps some best in slot DPS).
ROGUES FTW!