Observations from running a Naxx-25 PuG, part II
7. My biggest mistake: not requiring vent.
Nihilum used to be famous for raiding without vent (and for all I know Ensidia still doesn't use it). Your PuG is not Nihilum, and it's a giant pain in the ass to have to explain things over vent and in raid. I am nonetheless very sympathetic to people who don't use vent and/or don't want to download it, because I was in their shoes when I started raiding, but there is no text-based substitute for the speed and clarity with which you can explain a fight and answer questions.
If you absolutely do not want to use something like Ventrilo or TeamSpeak, I'm OK with it as long as you know the fights and employ a modicum of common sense. If you absolutely do not want to use it and you don't know the fights, I can't justify taking you over someone who does.
8. An entirely non-PC (and, I admit, possibly incorrect) observation: pugged DK quality is a total crapshoot, but the quality of the average Rogue, Mage, Warlock, and Hunter has gone up.
I have a pet theory concerning the vacillating population numbers we've seen in classes since Wrath hit, and the observation is borne out so far through my experience in hundreds of PuG's (yours, of course, may differ, and I'd like to hear if they do).
If Zardoz's numbers are within shouting distance of accuracy, we can reasonably expect that the vast majority of Death Knights being played as mains at 80 are rerolls from a pure DPS class. Some of them, like the Death Knight main tank we had the first night of the run, are extremely good. Some of them, like one of the DK off-tanks we pugged, need some help. But it's my theory that the players who didn't reroll from a pure DPS class entering Wrath are more likely to be the people who played their class well and are emotionally invested in the toon. It has become much more uncommon for me to run across an inexperienced pure DPS class since starting Wrath. For all I know, this is a demographic reality (if it is indeed reality) unique to my server, but Zardoz's numbers seem to provide a little insight into how this might have occurred. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
And the big one:
9. Almost anyone can learn to play their toon effectively in a raid, but you can't teach a jerk not to be a jerk.
I don't regret telling people that great gear wasn't necessary to come, and I consider it a point of pride that we had two players with little to no Naxx experience regularly land among the top 5 DPS after listening to peoples' fight explanations and asking questions when something didn't make sense. "Skill > gear" is a saying that gets trotted out a lot, but I'd also argue that "Nice" and/or "Sensible" > gear. Almost anyone can learn how to maximize their toon's contribution to a raid, but there's nothing short of an epiphany that's going to make an unpleasant person fun to be around.
The DK off-tank I mentioned previously who was vastly overconfident of his Heigan dancing skills was still a lot more fun than the smartass tank we had to pick up the following night when the DK couldn't make it. When I put runs together, I don't go looking for rude players no matter how competent they are. They make my job harder by being a constant irritant to either myself or other people, and they'll cost me more time having to deal with complaints than I would spend picking up a more inexperienced player who's willing to put the time in to learn a fight.
Peoples' memories for the names of the jackasses among them are also astonishingly long. You may not remember the people you piss off today, but I promise they'll remember you.
Nihilum used to be famous for raiding without vent (and for all I know Ensidia still doesn't use it). Your PuG is not Nihilum, and it's a giant pain in the ass to have to explain things over vent and in raid. I am nonetheless very sympathetic to people who don't use vent and/or don't want to download it, because I was in their shoes when I started raiding, but there is no text-based substitute for the speed and clarity with which you can explain a fight and answer questions.
If you absolutely do not want to use something like Ventrilo or TeamSpeak, I'm OK with it as long as you know the fights and employ a modicum of common sense. If you absolutely do not want to use it and you don't know the fights, I can't justify taking you over someone who does.
8. An entirely non-PC (and, I admit, possibly incorrect) observation: pugged DK quality is a total crapshoot, but the quality of the average Rogue, Mage, Warlock, and Hunter has gone up.
I have a pet theory concerning the vacillating population numbers we've seen in classes since Wrath hit, and the observation is borne out so far through my experience in hundreds of PuG's (yours, of course, may differ, and I'd like to hear if they do).
If Zardoz's numbers are within shouting distance of accuracy, we can reasonably expect that the vast majority of Death Knights being played as mains at 80 are rerolls from a pure DPS class. Some of them, like the Death Knight main tank we had the first night of the run, are extremely good. Some of them, like one of the DK off-tanks we pugged, need some help. But it's my theory that the players who didn't reroll from a pure DPS class entering Wrath are more likely to be the people who played their class well and are emotionally invested in the toon. It has become much more uncommon for me to run across an inexperienced pure DPS class since starting Wrath. For all I know, this is a demographic reality (if it is indeed reality) unique to my server, but Zardoz's numbers seem to provide a little insight into how this might have occurred. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
And the big one:
9. Almost anyone can learn to play their toon effectively in a raid, but you can't teach a jerk not to be a jerk.
I don't regret telling people that great gear wasn't necessary to come, and I consider it a point of pride that we had two players with little to no Naxx experience regularly land among the top 5 DPS after listening to peoples' fight explanations and asking questions when something didn't make sense. "Skill > gear" is a saying that gets trotted out a lot, but I'd also argue that "Nice" and/or "Sensible" > gear. Almost anyone can learn how to maximize their toon's contribution to a raid, but there's nothing short of an epiphany that's going to make an unpleasant person fun to be around.
The DK off-tank I mentioned previously who was vastly overconfident of his Heigan dancing skills was still a lot more fun than the smartass tank we had to pick up the following night when the DK couldn't make it. When I put runs together, I don't go looking for rude players no matter how competent they are. They make my job harder by being a constant irritant to either myself or other people, and they'll cost me more time having to deal with complaints than I would spend picking up a more inexperienced player who's willing to put the time in to learn a fight.
Peoples' memories for the names of the jackasses among them are also astonishingly long. You may not remember the people you piss off today, but I promise they'll remember you.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
zoombini Apr 8th 2009 4:08PM
You know the easiest way to get a PuG to do Heigan? Get a shaman to drop totems showing the 4 zones. They can run all around in front of heigan beforehand to do it. If none of your shamans know the fight, have them follow you while you tell them "place one here . . . ok, now here".
Then tell everyone: "ok, go from totem to totem and back."
PROTIP: Make sure one of the totems in the 2 central zones is disease cleansing. Makes it that much easier for the cleansers.
Brimoonfang Apr 8th 2009 4:12PM
It's a great idea, but don't Shaman totems have a timeout?
Gizza Apr 9th 2009 1:53AM
Ohh... Nice tip!
Quorniya Apr 8th 2009 4:31PM
Our raid used this strategy with flares instead of totems when we were first learning the fight. Works well even if you don't have any shamans!
Hendrata Apr 8th 2009 4:37PM
They do have timeout but generally people will see the totem and understand what you mean right away rather than just "picturing it in your head"
You can also use campfire from cooking skill.
epsilon343 Apr 8th 2009 4:44PM
You'd think that'd work but I put both my totems and flares down to try and help them out and weeks later people were still dying after the first pulse on the first run. Some people are just hardwired to fail miserably at Heigan.
Rick Apr 8th 2009 4:49PM
You sir (or madam) are freakin BRILLIANT! I don't know WHY I didn't think of this, I will try this on our next Naxx run and maybe actually get that achievement!
xenothaulus Apr 8th 2009 5:34PM
@epsilon343: Some people are just hardwired to fail miserably at Heigan. FTFY.
xenothaulus Apr 8th 2009 5:36PM
@myself: Aaaand, I can't use in comments apparently so, yeah. Fail. :|
smiley Apr 9th 2009 8:10AM
what i do on hei is on my holy pally the only toon i raid with generally, he is an eng, and i throw down smoke in the 4 zones, everybody is told get to the nxt smoke as soon as the slime leaves it.
you don't even need to be an eng to use the smoke either so just get the mats and have your friendly neighborhood tinkerer whip you up a batch
Stone Apr 10th 2009 8:21AM
We always use Campfires to show new people the zones. They last longer and who doesnt love that +4 spirit buff?
Mike Apr 9th 2009 12:32PM
My problem with PuGs is that everyone just leaves on the first wipe...
Lomion Apr 9th 2009 2:57PM
Best way I've ever seen to do Heigan was in a guild run that pugged me into one of the last slots. It was an achievement attempt for saftey dance and they made it very simple. They were going to try for the achievement 3 times. If anyone died the raid would intentionally wipe when Heigan was at 25%. The people that died waited outside the room while the remaining people tried again. Last attempt was successful with only 8 people. Took forever, but it worked.
Dumag Apr 8th 2009 4:15PM
Five minutes or so. And here's the real kicker: While yer shaman is dancing, he can re-drop the totems!
hehealme Apr 8th 2009 4:15PM
God bless you for having the patience for dealing with PuGs, especially for a 25-man.
My personal stance is to never EVER join a full PuG 25-Naxx. People tend to be undergeared, inept, and downright inconsiderate of others. I've seen 10-man Naxx full PuGs succeed, however.
Unless its a majority guild PuG 25-man, I'd rather look for hen teeth :-P
Somavian Apr 8th 2009 6:13PM
I'm in a guild that is only made up of me and about 5 friends irl, so we really can't do guild runs. We do however quite successfully pug naxx-25 once a week.
Zayd Apr 8th 2009 4:17PM
I hate PuGs :*(
Had some of my worst WoW experiences in them.
Catiya of Feathermoon Apr 8th 2009 4:58PM
On the contrary, I love PuGs! I've met most of the greatest people I have on WoW from them.
andy Apr 9th 2009 7:12AM
On aveOn average I’ve had worse experiences in guild runs than I have in pugs, i.e. a mage out dkp biding me on all the gear that came up until we got to the last wing the officers Finally checked and he had spent about 4 times more than he had in the first place,
one of the best moments in all of my wow life, is when me and 3 of my rl mates ran a "teaching" naxx 10 pug, saying we would only take ppl without the achievement the one requirement being that they had run over half of the heroics (to make sure they had at least made the effort to gear up)
it went amazingly (we cleared it all even tho we had quite a few wipes) and was good fun and we felt that we had actually helped a few ppl who wouldn’t have got accepted into runs other wise
Robert M Apr 8th 2009 5:26PM
Though, like Allison, don't have any empirical evidence to support my claim, believe that the age of a server often influences the quality of pugs.
I started playing WoW shortly after TBC launced on Nordrassil. The server was a recommended on and had come online in January of '07. Most of the players on the server made me want to jump off the elevators in Shat and never return.
I have since transferred to Draenor, which came up in December of '04, and it is far superior for pugging. More of the players seem to have an understanding of their class, and even other peoples classes though they are usually more polite than the people claiming leet status on Nordrassil. With only a few exceptions, I actually enjoy joining LFG on Draenor and have always just attributed the quality to the age of the server and the types of players that must have been playing WoW early on. I even got tips when I first started tanking, and everyone was really cool about aggro and constructive criticism in those early days back b4 Lich was even released.