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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBlizzard did the wrong thing with Ulduar-10 emblems
by Eliah Hecht 
Apr 10th 2009 at 1:00PM
As we posted yesterday, it has been made very clear at this point that Emblems of Valor are the emblems that are going to drop in the 10-man version of Ulduar, while the 25-man version will drop the entirely new Emblems of Conquest. Nothing is being added to the EoV vendors aside from the relics that drop in Naxx-25.
In other words, 10-man raids are basically getting glossed over, and 25-man raiders are getting all the new shinies.
Where 25-man raiders get an entirely new quartermaster with access to gear on par with normal-mode Uld-25 drops (ilvl 226), as well as two of their tier 8.5 tokens, we get recycled EoV gear that was originally meant for Naxx-25 raiders. This is gear that is half a tier worse than the gear that drops in Uld-10 normal mode (ilvl 213 vs 219), and there is no way for us to buy our tier 8.0 gear with emblems, at all.
Add this to the fact that Val'anyr (the new legendary healer mace) is a 25-man exclusive, and I'm one annoyed raider. They have been saying all along that they want 10-man and 25-man to be separate progression paths. I'm starting to think it's no coincidence that they left out "but equal;" it's becoming more and more apparent that 10-man progression is meant to be significantly worse than 25-man progression.
The major argument that Blizz has been giving against putting T8.0 gear for purchase by EoVs is that they don't want 25-man guilds stockpiling hundreds of emblems in order to rush out and buy stuff on the 3.1 release - they want to depart from the Burning Crusade model of badge farming. That seems like a good idea to me, but the thing to do would have been to introduce a new kind of emblem just for Uld-10, with trading-down to EoVs. Let's call them Emblems of Awesome, or EoAs for short.
10-man raiders would then get their EoAs out of Uld-10, which they could use to buy T8.0 pieces, just like 25-man raiders buy their pieces with EoCs. Ideally there would also be some new pieces on the EoA vendor, with the appropriate ilvl, 219. And if Uld-10 raiders wanted to go buy some EoV stuff, they could trade their EoAs down to EoVs (and then again down to EoHs in case they needed heirlooms or something).
But no, they didn't do this. They recycled the EoV stuff, and decided that it was fine to make us rely on boss drops for tier gear, and to get gear 6 ilvls lower than our drops in exchange for our badges. I'm very disappointed. I was really hoping that in Wrath 10- and 25-mans would be on an equal footing, but once again it seems that only the largest groups are considered first-class raiders. Shame.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 14)
The Claw Apr 10th 2009 5:20PM
This is why people who have been playing this game for a long time understand that there is NOTHING Blizzard can do, short of mailing a full set of legendary gear to every character upon character creation, that wouldn't result in strident QQing from a bunch of whiny babies who can't STAND the thought that someone else might be able to get something that they can't.
And frankly even if they did that, the babies would stamp their tiny feet and whine about how unfair it is that there's no mailbox in your starting hamlet, and you have to walk down the road for a few minutes to get to the second town to claim your legendaries.
Ferarro Apr 10th 2009 5:36PM
Ulduar 25 > Ulduar 10
Ulduar 25 loots > Ulduar 10 loot
Seems easy to me.
Arkeband Apr 10th 2009 5:56PM
@EVERYONE:
ULDUAR 10 = NAXX 25
The loot that drops from each is almost exactly the same. Naxx 25, especially KT drops, are sometimes higher iLvL than Ulduar 10. Why the *frig* would Ulduar 10 drop badges stronger than Naxx 25? (and therefore itself!)
vazhkatsi Apr 10th 2009 6:58PM
In regards to OS10 3d being harder than the 25 man, blizz has said that they dropped the ball on that one, and they know it. according to them, ulduar10 will be easier than 25, unless you use the hard modes. if you've only been doing 10 mans, you won't have all the valor gear, and if you have been doing 25 mans, your point is invalid.
kabshiel Apr 10th 2009 7:04PM
I agree. It definitely feels like 10-man raiders are just getting the 25-man raiders' leftovers.
Verit Apr 11th 2009 5:19AM
@vazhkatsi
Then why don't they do something about it? I think its retarded to have to have 3 tanks for a 1o man instance, and then have 25 man gear to make up for the dps. Thats what we ended up having to do sadly :(.
And 10 mans are the red headed stepchild - Blizzard couldn't even be bothered to have a legendary weapon for 10 man ulduar - wtf? Why is itemization and progression in this game so retarded?
I swear - its niggling little decisions like this that will be the end of this game - when Blizzard releases content and its more distressing than fun - I think its time to move on.
Spazmoosifer Apr 13th 2009 2:05PM
1. While it would be nice to have a legendary item drop from doing the hard mode Ulduar-10 bosses, I think that limiting the legendary to the 25-man version is just fine, as doing a 25-man instance does seem more "legendary" so to speak due to the number of people (though not necessarily more difficult).
2. The problem that people are having with the gear is basically this (with regards to iLevel):
Ulduar-25 = EoC
Ulduar-10 > EoV
This would be fine if Blizzard had actually added some EoV gear that is comparable to the Ulduar-10 gear, but they just kinda ignored it, making it so that if you run Ulduar-25, you can "fill-in" with equal iLevel gear for the drops you don't get. While at the same time, if you run Ulduar-10, you get to "fill-in" with a lower iLevel gear.
If you ask me, Blizzard did drop the ball here, but I also feel that people should just get over it. Personally, I run 10-mans for fun, and 25-mans for gear, so if you want better gear, find a bigger group, and quit the QQ.
Arajal Apr 10th 2009 1:06PM
If loot is that important to you, grab some people and raid 25 man Ulduar.
Clevins Apr 10th 2009 2:19PM
Point... missed.
Some people can't reliably get 25 people together or don't want the logistics hassle etc. The entire idea behind the 10s was to give those people a way to experience the raid content too with loot scaled for them and that encounter. This decision reneges on that - the 25s get a new Emblem type with Emblem gear at the same iLevel as the 25 man drops and 2 pieces of purchaseable T8.5. All the 10 man raiders want is the correspdongin stuff for 10s - a new emblem type with gear equivalent to what drops in Ulduar 10 and a couple of piece of T8.0 that can be bought. It's not that the ilevel of Uld-10 gear is worse than 25... I'm fine with that. It's that they're not putting equal effort into each progression path.
What this means is that they lied about 10 man raiding being an equally valid path through Wrath with gear scaled for each instance - it's not. This time we don't get new Emblems while 25 does... what about the next raid? What shortcut will they take then? Maybe cut out a hard mode or two? Eliminate a boss?
Rullerr Apr 10th 2009 4:11PM
@Clevins
They are doing exactly what they said they are and as much as I love WI's articles... this is nothing short of QQ.
People in BC were complaining that they didn't see CONTENT. You get to see all the content now as a 10 man raiding guild. And for everyone saying 25man isn't harder just a logistical annoyance, ummmmm... .that's what makes it harder.
We raid 25mans regularly in my guild, as well as 10 man. 10 mans are a breeze, we have the right setup and a group who knows what we're doing cause we do it every week. Our 25man runs are still a challenge cause we can't reliably get the same 25 people together, creating one more person to train, to get up to date with our strats.. etc. Challenge in WOW isn't all from the RNG and scripts the bosses run, but how the players interact and getting everything running like a machine. Sorry to the OP but that's alot easier in 10mans than 25mans.
If you want the content it's there, the gear is all you're being gimped. So stop QQing and if gear is that important join a 25man and deal with it.
magedude Apr 10th 2009 4:15PM
"Some people can't reliably get 25 people together or don't want the logistics hassle etc. "
Point...double missed. Not only have the devs repeatedly stated that they are going to fix their mistake of making 10-man raids around as hard as 25-mans (the idea that they are significantly harder is nonsense except in the sole case of Sarth3D), but you make my point for me. 25-man raids are there to reward players who manage to herd cats well enough to bring 25 people together towards a single goal. It is inherently more difficult and therefore more rewarding when it works out. Therefore, it is legitimate for them to reward this larger and more difficult to organize group dynamic with slightly better loot.
On a side note, if you honestly think the difference between 10-man and 25-man loot breaks your character, you have put far too much value in ilevels. Sit back, take a minute, and realize the total difference between 10-man hard mode and 25-man hard mode loot is relatively small.
Angus Apr 10th 2009 5:52PM
"(the idea that they are significantly harder is nonsense except in the sole case of Sarth3D),"
Really? Cause last time we had grobbulus, 1 person messed up and killed 3 people with a cloud. Same person does it in naxx 10. We stopped them from coming because they keep killing the raid. In naxx 25, meh. "You owe 3 people a repair bill. Again"
In 10 man raids you are much more dependent on your other 9 people. 25 man has some slack where a poorly geared or just plain dumb person can still do okay and you can progress.
I don't see that changing when you have 2 siege engines requiring 4 people, and then 6 people to run the rest of the needed vehicles in the flame leviathan fight. Those other 3 vehicles have to be dependable.
Moppentoff Apr 10th 2009 1:06PM
You seem to have forgot that the bosses will drop loot as well as EoVs
Kassu Apr 10th 2009 4:49PM
You miss the point like a champ.
25man raiders can buy Tier 8.5 gear with emblems they got from running a T8.5 raid.
10man raiders can buy T7.5 gear with the emblems they got from a T8 raid.
Can you see it now?
25man raiders get gear from both emblems and drops
10man raiders get worthwhile gear from drops only.
pants Apr 10th 2009 8:54PM
@kassu
10mans DO drop new tokens for tier 8.0, and the ilvl of the gear from them=ilvl of drops
you just can't pick up the tier 8.0 from badges
Apra Apr 10th 2009 9:25PM
No... You seem to be missing the point. Many classes will still want the Tier 7 set bonus. Therefore 10 man raiders will have access to iLvl 213 T7 gear via badges, as well as iLvl 213 T8 gear via drops.
25 Man raiders will be unable to keep up with the 25 man iLvl yet still have set bonuses from both tiers, so essentially this is beneficial to 10 man raiders, who will only require 213 iLvl gear to progress.
Kassu Apr 11th 2009 7:45AM
You both don't get it.
1) Yes I know that we get TOKENS for T8 from bosses, dooh. But the emblems that drop are useless.
2) T7.5 being better is not intentional. Blizz will nerf T7 bonuses.
It's the same if Ulduar25 dropped emblems that gave accesss to Ulduar10 gear. 25man raiders wouldnt be very happy, now would they?
rewind Apr 10th 2009 1:08PM
./agree whole heartedly
Case Apr 10th 2009 1:48PM
I totally agree too. I HATE 25 man raids with a passion and now Blizz is forcing me to participate if I want to better my gear. Bad move, Blizz.
Akhi Apr 10th 2009 1:51PM
And what, exactly, do you need 25man gear for if you never plan to run anything but 10mans?