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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBlizzard did the wrong thing with Ulduar-10 emblems
by Eliah Hecht 
Apr 10th 2009 at 1:00PM
As we posted yesterday, it has been made very clear at this point that Emblems of Valor are the emblems that are going to drop in the 10-man version of Ulduar, while the 25-man version will drop the entirely new Emblems of Conquest. Nothing is being added to the EoV vendors aside from the relics that drop in Naxx-25.
In other words, 10-man raids are basically getting glossed over, and 25-man raiders are getting all the new shinies.
Where 25-man raiders get an entirely new quartermaster with access to gear on par with normal-mode Uld-25 drops (ilvl 226), as well as two of their tier 8.5 tokens, we get recycled EoV gear that was originally meant for Naxx-25 raiders. This is gear that is half a tier worse than the gear that drops in Uld-10 normal mode (ilvl 213 vs 219), and there is no way for us to buy our tier 8.0 gear with emblems, at all.
Add this to the fact that Val'anyr (the new legendary healer mace) is a 25-man exclusive, and I'm one annoyed raider. They have been saying all along that they want 10-man and 25-man to be separate progression paths. I'm starting to think it's no coincidence that they left out "but equal;" it's becoming more and more apparent that 10-man progression is meant to be significantly worse than 25-man progression.
The major argument that Blizz has been giving against putting T8.0 gear for purchase by EoVs is that they don't want 25-man guilds stockpiling hundreds of emblems in order to rush out and buy stuff on the 3.1 release - they want to depart from the Burning Crusade model of badge farming. That seems like a good idea to me, but the thing to do would have been to introduce a new kind of emblem just for Uld-10, with trading-down to EoVs. Let's call them Emblems of Awesome, or EoAs for short.
10-man raiders would then get their EoAs out of Uld-10, which they could use to buy T8.0 pieces, just like 25-man raiders buy their pieces with EoCs. Ideally there would also be some new pieces on the EoA vendor, with the appropriate ilvl, 219. And if Uld-10 raiders wanted to go buy some EoV stuff, they could trade their EoAs down to EoVs (and then again down to EoHs in case they needed heirlooms or something).
But no, they didn't do this. They recycled the EoV stuff, and decided that it was fine to make us rely on boss drops for tier gear, and to get gear 6 ilvls lower than our drops in exchange for our badges. I'm very disappointed. I was really hoping that in Wrath 10- and 25-mans would be on an equal footing, but once again it seems that only the largest groups are considered first-class raiders. Shame.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 14)
rewind Apr 10th 2009 2:24PM
I don't want T7.5 for doing Ulduar10.
I don't want T8 for doing (farming) Naxx25.
I would like T8 (iLvl 219) gear for doing Ulduar10 enough times to be screwed by the RNG.
Khalis Apr 10th 2009 4:05PM
If you aren't going to be doing 25 man raids, then what do you need the better gear for anyway? Or do you just want the shiny purples just to have them? If you don't want to deal with 25 raids, then you don't get the benefits of being in 25 raids.
While I agree that the new 10s should have their own badges, this article, and most of the comments are full of QQ.
Jason Apr 10th 2009 1:08PM
This is a great post. I don't know if Blizz workers read WoWInsider, so I think you should post this In the Suggestions forum as well. :)
Siorra Apr 10th 2009 1:11PM
Despite the whine, I can see where you're coming from. I can also see why Blizzard are doing this. Stockpiling emblems to get 2pc t8 in the first hour of logging on would have been bad game design. Yeah they could add more emblems, but then it takes the idea out of step by step progression.
But, if Blizz want to stick by heroic raids over normal, then I'm all for it. It keeps the 'Massive' in MMO's. Something which seems to be diminishing with arena and 10 mans coming further into play.
Waryor Apr 10th 2009 1:12PM
Assuming you only run 10-mans, how are these not upgrades for you? Pretty much, what this boils down to is 10-man guilds can't get the new "best-in-slot", and the players are whining. If you weren't running 25-mans, you never had BIS gear anyway.
Speaking as someone who has barely seen any 25-man content outside of what I've been able to PuG, I don't view this as unfair at all. In fact, I'd be ticked if all the 25-man guilds instantly had T8.0 as soon as the patch dropped. Upgrades are upgrades, whether the gear came with the patch or not. The gear levels and rewards fit the progression path the people choose to take, and we avoid the problems of 1) having 2+ currencies for each new raid, and 2) running heroics for badges to buy T6 level gear like I had to do in BC.
There's always the recruitment forums if you're looking for a guild that can run 25s.
Heilig Apr 10th 2009 1:17PM
This guy gets it.
Ten mans aren't being glossed over. If you only run ten mans, you have never even seen an emblem of valor. Now all of a sudden you will have access to all the emblem loot you couldn't acquire before. This is EXACTLY the right way to do things. if you want the best loot in the game, find a 25 man raid guild. if you want the best loot available to ten-man players because your guild only runs ten mans, then you are going to be getting exactly that. If you are pugging 25 man ulduar to try to get better gear, THEN YOU ARE NOT A TEN MAN RAIDER. You are a PART-TIME 25 man raider.
The only part of this article I agree with is that the tier 8.0 pieces should be available for EoV. So what if people stockpile badges so they can get their tier on day one? We're talking two pieces of gear. Just let them have it.
Karilyn Apr 10th 2009 2:03PM
The key point is this.
T7 < T7.5 < T8 < T8.5
You follow?
Naxx 10 raiders get T7 gear from bosses and T7 gear from badges.
Naxx 25 raiders get T7.5 gear from bosses and T7.5 gear from badges.
Uldaur 25 raiders get T8.5 gear from bosses and T8.5 gear from badges.
Now here's the kicker...
Naxx 10 raiders get T8 gear from bosses and T7.5 gear from badges, which is inferior to their T8 gear.
That doesn't come off as a problem?
vexis58 Apr 10th 2009 4:34PM
"Naxx 10 raiders get T8 gear from bosses and T7.5 gear from badges, which is inferior to their T8 gear."
This does seem fundamentally unfair. I do like to raid both 10 and 25 man, and I don't need EoVs right now any more than I needed EoHs when I started in 10-man Naxx. I already had everything I wanted to buy from the previous tier, so now they're just going towards BoA items for my alts and offspec gear. EoVs from Ulduar seem like they're only any good for people who ONLY raided 10-man Naxx, and even for those people, they aren't that great.
nders Apr 10th 2009 1:12PM
But 10 and 25 shouldn't be on equal footing.
Auto Apr 10th 2009 1:20PM
I think they should remove gear from WoW period.
No more QQ from either side that way. :)
krypt0n1te83 Apr 10th 2009 1:14PM
"make us rely on boss drops for tier gear,"
You want all the gears handed to you without downing bosses?
Siorra Apr 10th 2009 1:17PM
*Coming to an Ulduar near you: CHESS!
You've laid waste to Medivh with an epic struggle of Horde vs. Alliance, but this time Yogg-Saron's got it in for you. Will you survive the mind games? Play the board and find out!*
Yeah, I can't see it happening either.
Mirth Apr 10th 2009 1:20PM
Are you forgetting that Valor tokens can buy you 2 pieces of Valorous gear? 2 pieces that are often the BiS items for most classes/specs. And overall, you now have access to the items that can be bought with valor tokens PERIOD. Which you didn't have access to before.
Randy Apr 10th 2009 1:25PM
His point was the 25 man emblems in Ulduar can be used to buy 2 pieces of the tier set....but thats not possible with EoV's....thats what he's saying is unfair....25 man can get tier gear without getting it from boss loot while the 10 man cant.
Knob Apr 10th 2009 1:15PM
Exactly. And if you do bring this up, you're branded an elitist prick. I just don't understand it.
*Cue in someone bringing up the fact that 10m is WAY more difficult than 25m and then giving only Sartharion-3D as an example.* Here's an answer for you: Blizzard admitted that Sartharion-3D being harder in 10m was a mistake on their part and that they hope to have fixed the problem in Ulduar-10.
Basically, you do not need 25m raid loot to complete 10m raids. If you want 25m loot, go do 25m raids.
*Awaits rate down.*
Verit Apr 11th 2009 8:32AM
Ok I'll bite (and I won't use OS as an example) - the big difference I've seen between 10 and 25 man raids is 25 man raids you can have as many as 10 idiots who all die from whatever effect the boss does and still down the boss (the only exception I can think of in Naxx is Thaddius). First time I ever did grob was in a 25 man pug and 15 people died, and we still downed him. When we did it as 10 man as a guild - one person dying made the fight really difficult - especially as our gear wasn't all that great and dps was low.
If those same 10 idiots are doing 10 man naxx they won't make it past Anub'Rekan.
I've been there - I've actually downed KT on 25 man mode with 8 people alive. You lose 2 people on KT in 10 man it becomes significantly harder (doubly so if you lose your offtank). There are fights on 25 man naxx where the more people that die the easier it becomes to heal (KT and Saph are both in this category).
Gluth on 10 man - if your kiter dies or sucks - its a wipe. On 25 man - get another person to kite. I've seen 25 man fights where it was literally a zerg kite strategy, as each person died they brought in kite backups and kept going - and downed him.
Its a question of numbers and how good your players are. Ulduar fights sadly seem the same - those 2-3 people who have that all important "do this job perfectly or we all wipe" have to be solid and do their job with perfection. None of this lol-zerg-it attitude you see in 25 man raids.
On Blizzard admitting that OS on 10 man was harder - first - where is this admission and second (and most important) - why didn't they do anything about it?
Docp Apr 10th 2009 1:17PM
Perhaps you should reread it then. He's not saying that he wants gear that is appropiate to 25man loot, but that the badges in 10 man Ulduar should be able to buy gear equivalent to other 10man Ulduar gear.
Also 25 man raiding is not significantly harder than 10man at the moment and on several bosses notably easier.
Bellock Apr 10th 2009 1:18PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Arajal....if not getting the new badge gear annoys you that much then expand and get into 25-man raids. There are going to be over 800 new pieces of gear that are going into 3.1 and if you look at any of the loot tables that have been posted then you will see that there is enough gear to go around for everyone along with tier 8. I think that Blizzard is doing fine with the way they are managing 10-man casuals and 25-man guild raids.
Hannen Apr 10th 2009 1:19PM
So here is my question for the poster. Do you consider yourself a raider for doing 10 man content?
It is about TIME, they are rewarding 25 man raids, with a Legendary Mace, along with a New Badge Vendor. WHY should the casual raiders get the same jump start as say a hardcore raider should get.
Blizzard is finally taking the time to reward REAL raiders rather than having to appeal to Arena or "CASUAL" raiders/gamers.
Call this a rant all you want, but the current content in WoTLK is a joke that is PUGable. Either raid 25 man and get gear or do 10 mans and Not moan about not getting the upper hand.
peagle Apr 10th 2009 1:18PM
'Fraid I have to agree with the general consensus here. This is just whining, particularly tossing in the bit about the legendary mace.
Blizzard has already significantly opened the endgame to far more raiders, complaining that 10-man rewards/emblems aren't stacking up to 25-man progression is just asking for them to cap the game difficulty (yes, even the difficulty of getting 25 competent people together) even further.