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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBlizzard did the wrong thing with Ulduar-10 emblems
by Eliah Hecht 
Apr 10th 2009 at 1:00PM
As we posted yesterday, it has been made very clear at this point that Emblems of Valor are the emblems that are going to drop in the 10-man version of Ulduar, while the 25-man version will drop the entirely new Emblems of Conquest. Nothing is being added to the EoV vendors aside from the relics that drop in Naxx-25.
In other words, 10-man raids are basically getting glossed over, and 25-man raiders are getting all the new shinies.
Where 25-man raiders get an entirely new quartermaster with access to gear on par with normal-mode Uld-25 drops (ilvl 226), as well as two of their tier 8.5 tokens, we get recycled EoV gear that was originally meant for Naxx-25 raiders. This is gear that is half a tier worse than the gear that drops in Uld-10 normal mode (ilvl 213 vs 219), and there is no way for us to buy our tier 8.0 gear with emblems, at all.
Add this to the fact that Val'anyr (the new legendary healer mace) is a 25-man exclusive, and I'm one annoyed raider. They have been saying all along that they want 10-man and 25-man to be separate progression paths. I'm starting to think it's no coincidence that they left out "but equal;" it's becoming more and more apparent that 10-man progression is meant to be significantly worse than 25-man progression.
The major argument that Blizz has been giving against putting T8.0 gear for purchase by EoVs is that they don't want 25-man guilds stockpiling hundreds of emblems in order to rush out and buy stuff on the 3.1 release - they want to depart from the Burning Crusade model of badge farming. That seems like a good idea to me, but the thing to do would have been to introduce a new kind of emblem just for Uld-10, with trading-down to EoVs. Let's call them Emblems of Awesome, or EoAs for short.
10-man raiders would then get their EoAs out of Uld-10, which they could use to buy T8.0 pieces, just like 25-man raiders buy their pieces with EoCs. Ideally there would also be some new pieces on the EoA vendor, with the appropriate ilvl, 219. And if Uld-10 raiders wanted to go buy some EoV stuff, they could trade their EoAs down to EoVs (and then again down to EoHs in case they needed heirlooms or something).
But no, they didn't do this. They recycled the EoV stuff, and decided that it was fine to make us rely on boss drops for tier gear, and to get gear 6 ilvls lower than our drops in exchange for our badges. I'm very disappointed. I was really hoping that in Wrath 10- and 25-mans would be on an equal footing, but once again it seems that only the largest groups are considered first-class raiders. Shame.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 14)
skynes Apr 10th 2009 1:19PM
Would you like some cheese with your whine?
You're obviously missing the point.
If you stuck to 10 man raiding you only EVER got to see Emblems of Honour gear. Now when you do 10 man Ulduar you get Emblem of Valor gear, one tier higher, which is exactly where you would be. From ilev 200 up to 213(ish).
If you stuck to 25 man raiding your best gear came from Emblems of Valor (ilev 213) now when you go up to 25 man Ulduar you get the next tier up (226ish).
It's really not difficult to work out, nor is it unfair. Both styles of raiding are getting access to badge gear one tier higher than before.
Cat Apr 10th 2009 3:10PM
"It's really not difficult to work out, nor is it unfair. Both styles of raiding are getting access to badge gear one tier higher than before."
You're aware that moving from T7 to T7.5 in badge rewards is significantly different from the T7.5 to T8.5 in badge rewards available to the 25-man track, right? You're incorrect in stating that both styles get access to one tier higher: 10-man gets one half tier higher, despite working on content a full tier higher, while 25-man gets a full tier while working on a full tier up...
The thing of it is, we're all really excited for the new content, and new tier sets. Both the 10- and 25-man players have new sets designed for their raiding level, and that's awesome. The problem, though, is that the 25-man raiders are being given extra opportunity to get ahold of that new gear, while 10-man raiders get to fester in T7 gear and set bonuses, at iLevels lower than the content they're running.
It's kind of like an M.A. track (10-man) and a Ph.D. track (25-man) in graduate school. If you worked at the same classes (bosses...), in the same graduate school (dungeon: Ulduar...), but found that, because you're an M.A. student, you're only being given Undergraduate credit for your courses, you would be rather peeved.
Blizzard has kindly decided to give the Ph.D. students their graduate credit, while leaving the M.A. track students to undergraduate credit, despite their doing the same work, just on a smaller scale.
The problem is that, while both tracks have progressed, only one feels like its progress is being acknowledged.
Bottom line: It's bad ju-ju.
skynes Apr 10th 2009 3:22PM
Emblem of Honour gear is ilev 200
Emblem of Valor is ilev 213
Emblem of Conquest is 226
It's not half a tier, it's a full tier between each.
Cat Apr 10th 2009 3:27PM
Ulduar-10 items are iLevel 219, as is Tier-8.
nav Apr 11th 2009 8:27AM
skynes: Sorry, 13 ilvl points is regarded as half a tier, so there is half a tier between each.
Eisengel Apr 12th 2009 4:02AM
@Cat
I entirely agree.
I'm currently raiding with the best guild I've ever raided with, and all we can manage (based on number of people) is 10-man Naxx. I'd love to be able to run 25-man, but based on the hemisphere I live in and my play bracket, that is impossible. I've constantly looked for guilds I could raid with in BC, and to sub into 25s for in Wrath, but I'm just in a dead zone time-wise given where I live (i.e. there is no possible way I'm going to buy a whole new set of disks to play on the European servers).
Now, if I was not able to buy tier gear with my badges, I would never, ever have my T7 chest or hands. My guild hasn't yet downed those bosses. The only Tier tokens I've ever seen drop are the T7 shoulders. If this was patch 3.1, I would've quit raiding by now and would likely be hovering over the button to cancel my account until the next patch. I'm already getting an alt Naxx-geared because my main has everything it can use from the bosses we down.
Unless Ulduar-10 is a lot easier than Naxx-10, I may well be going without even the opportunity to roll on T8.
... and for those who say 'just get 15 more people or deal with it', pretty much everyone knows Naxx-25 is a LOT easier than Naxx-10, and the gear is better, so pretty much anyone raiding Naxx-10 now is someone who for some reason CAN'T raid Naxx-25. Unless you're of my faction, willing to grab 14 people and transfer to my server, and raid with my guild so that we can do Naxx-25, your argument is rather empty.
hoviboy Apr 10th 2009 1:20PM
QQ more lootwhores. You 10-man raiders have access to one of the greatest content lore-wise, still you find reasons to complain.
Niiru Apr 10th 2009 1:27PM
It's not an article; it's a blog entry.
Beli Apr 10th 2009 3:43PM
Man, some of the responders here really boggle the mind...
He's not proposing that 10 man be equal to 25 man, and Shaymous indicates. Go back and read the article.
And for Squint, some people don't have the time for 25 mans. Or enough guildies/friends to go, or don't have the patience for a PUG. rather than blame those people for crying about it, why don't you sympathize a little?
And for john... man, you're just out of line.
What the author was trying to impart here was that the 10-man raiding wasn't progressing at the same pace as 25-man. When you run 25-man Ulduar, you'll be getting emblems that you can use to buy gear on par with what you're raiding. When you raid 10 man Ulduar, you get emblems for gear that's worse than what you're raiding.
How would all you 25-man junkie whiners like it if Embems of Conquest were only good for ilvl 219 stuff? Would you feel like it's worthwhile to save up all those emblems to buy a shiny new pair of pants that are worse than the pants that drop off the first boss you killed?
Sumitra Apr 10th 2009 5:11PM
"Man, some of the responders here really boggle the mind...
He's not proposing that 10 man be equal to 25 man, and Shaymous indicates. Go back and read the article."
Unfortunately, that's *exactly* what he argued in his article last week. It's all just one big mushy ball of QQ now.
He really hurt his case then by admitting that he hadn't done any 25 man raiding, yet that it was all easier than 10 man. Now it's hard to give his opinion much credit.
Heilig Apr 10th 2009 1:19PM
You must be new here.
Nox Apr 10th 2009 1:26PM
Shaymous has a point. Raiding 25s is easy now since lolpatch 3.0, just pug into a run. I personally think t8 + 8.5 should be hard mode only. Everything looks the same, give the more "hardcore" group more of a reward for doing harder content. going for sets would be a wonderful addition to hardmode bosses.
As for the mace, Legendary items should be difficult and time consuming to obtain, the idea is you will see very few of them on the server. That they will have some kind of uniqueness to them, not that everyone on the face of azeroth will be holding it. it kinda devalues the whole item.
I love 10 and 25 raiding, but 25 mans should have significantly better rewards than 10 mans, and Blizz has managed to make this very very appealing.
Also, take note that U10 is supposed to be similar in difficulty to Naxx25, so why should they make the rewards for EoVs better? To make U10 easier than Naxx25? yes, wonderful idea there.
Verit Apr 11th 2009 9:36AM
So why the problem with having a legendary mace (with poorer stats than the 25 man version) from 10 man raids? Because 10 mans are for casuals or its not real raiding? I think the fact that the rewards for 10 mans are so much more lame really sucks, because it does require just as much effort to raid 10 mans as it does 25's (sans getting 25 players on all at once).
People on here think that 10 man raids are for casuals - in my experience you have to prepare just as much for a 10 man as any other raid, sometimes even more so if you are working on a hard boss for the first time as a guild.
I'm in a 10 man guild, we require consumables, food buffs, people that show up at a specific time twice a week (sometimes three times a week) and we have penalties for people who don't show up.
To me there's no such thing as casual raiding - there's just bad raiders and I've seen just as many of them on the 25 man scene as anywhere else.
Randy Apr 10th 2009 1:22PM
As someone with a currently inactive account I hate to agree with people who are saying get over it and stop QQ.....but its not a stretch of your argument Eliah to say that normal and heroic 5 mans should drop the same ilevel gear and we all know thats just dumb...
musicjunkie300 Apr 10th 2009 1:24PM
Too all the elitists above… you should get off your high horse..
I completely agree with the author of the article. If blizzard would just add in a new emblem type everyone would be happy. 25man raiders would still have their higher ilvl gear and their 8.5 sets. Meanwhile, 10man raiders would be able to purchase their new gear along with 8.0 sets. Just because some people like 25mans while others like 10 mans doesn’t mean the 10 man people should just get leftovers from previous 25man loot.
There is no valid reason for this current design.. Just laziness….
It’s not QQ when you’re RIGHT.
skynes Apr 10th 2009 1:27PM
No everyone wouldn't be happy. People would still be complaining that the 10 man badge loot is less than the 25 man. Or they would be whining how that Valor gear is inaccessible to 10 man raiders.
"It’s not QQ when you’re RIGHT."
It's QQ cause it's wrong.
Hannen Apr 10th 2009 1:28PM
You call your QQ right.
Answer me this, when you have people who can stockpile badges to get brand new Tier 8 gear the MOMENT the patch is released. Yes 25 man raiders can do the same but 10 man Ulduar gear is slightly better if not better at all. The point of the matter is, there WILL BE NO NEW GEAR ON VENDOR for a good reason, Poor design would lead to having some gear that makes Ulduar 10 man easier. Blizzard doesn't want that to happen.
Think a little bit about that.
Mindaika Apr 10th 2009 1:34PM
Casual raiding receives casual design consideration.
I used to do 10-man raiding back in BC. I did it because we only had 10 people, not because I "preferred" it. When I wanted to put in the time and effort for serious raiding, I joined a larger guild and did 25-man raiding.
Persons raiding 10's now will have access to a badge vendor that sells gear 1-tier higher than current content. Person's raiding 25's will have the same. The 25's will "be able" to buy Tier tokens from their vendor, except: they won't have the badges yet.
I fully expect Blizz to add T8 tokens to the EoV vendor sometime around 3-4 weeks from the beginning of 3.1, around the time a person who only ran 10's would have collected enough tokens.
Regardless, what is the actual complaint here? That 10's can't buy T8 tokens? 25's won't be able to for weeks anyway (and have you looked at T8 gear? Some of it is actually a DOWNGRADE from T7.25).
People who raid 25's are not "elitists," with the exception of the EJ guys. We're just people who prefer larger, harder raids.
Albinobeard Apr 10th 2009 4:26PM
Figured I should point out that you made a pretty big mistake here. Should be "Where 25-man raiders get an entirely new quartermaster with access to gear on par with normal-mode Uld-25 drops (ilvl 226), as well as two of their tier 8.5 tokens, we get recycled EoV gear that was originally meant for Naxx-25 raiders.".
Blizzard never said they'd be equal like you said yourself in the article. Just be glad you get any badges at all or that you have a 10 man progression either.
Grubba Apr 10th 2009 4:31PM
Having badge gear that is inferior to the drops of the content you are clearing is not "progression" in any sense of the word.