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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBlizzard did the wrong thing with Ulduar-10 emblems
by Eliah Hecht 
Apr 10th 2009 at 1:00PM
As we posted yesterday, it has been made very clear at this point that Emblems of Valor are the emblems that are going to drop in the 10-man version of Ulduar, while the 25-man version will drop the entirely new Emblems of Conquest. Nothing is being added to the EoV vendors aside from the relics that drop in Naxx-25.
In other words, 10-man raids are basically getting glossed over, and 25-man raiders are getting all the new shinies.
Where 25-man raiders get an entirely new quartermaster with access to gear on par with normal-mode Uld-25 drops (ilvl 226), as well as two of their tier 8.5 tokens, we get recycled EoV gear that was originally meant for Naxx-25 raiders. This is gear that is half a tier worse than the gear that drops in Uld-10 normal mode (ilvl 213 vs 219), and there is no way for us to buy our tier 8.0 gear with emblems, at all.
Add this to the fact that Val'anyr (the new legendary healer mace) is a 25-man exclusive, and I'm one annoyed raider. They have been saying all along that they want 10-man and 25-man to be separate progression paths. I'm starting to think it's no coincidence that they left out "but equal;" it's becoming more and more apparent that 10-man progression is meant to be significantly worse than 25-man progression.
The major argument that Blizz has been giving against putting T8.0 gear for purchase by EoVs is that they don't want 25-man guilds stockpiling hundreds of emblems in order to rush out and buy stuff on the 3.1 release - they want to depart from the Burning Crusade model of badge farming. That seems like a good idea to me, but the thing to do would have been to introduce a new kind of emblem just for Uld-10, with trading-down to EoVs. Let's call them Emblems of Awesome, or EoAs for short.
10-man raiders would then get their EoAs out of Uld-10, which they could use to buy T8.0 pieces, just like 25-man raiders buy their pieces with EoCs. Ideally there would also be some new pieces on the EoA vendor, with the appropriate ilvl, 219. And if Uld-10 raiders wanted to go buy some EoV stuff, they could trade their EoAs down to EoVs (and then again down to EoHs in case they needed heirlooms or something).
But no, they didn't do this. They recycled the EoV stuff, and decided that it was fine to make us rely on boss drops for tier gear, and to get gear 6 ilvls lower than our drops in exchange for our badges. I'm very disappointed. I was really hoping that in Wrath 10- and 25-mans would be on an equal footing, but once again it seems that only the largest groups are considered first-class raiders. Shame.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 14)
Menchi Apr 10th 2009 1:27PM
Yea i have to say this article is a little off base.
For one Blizzard said from day one of announcing 10 and 25 man raids 25 man gear was going to be superior (hence the 10 and 25 ilevel difference). 25 is supposed to be harder then 10 man to compensate so it only makes sense that the legendary items are going to only show up in 25 mans. This is to keep the people raiding 25 mans and feel like there is some reason to.
I both understand why they didn't introduce any new gear vendor for 10 man and why people wish they had either with a new badge or just let 25 man people get free upgrades.
But ultimately I think adding two sets of tokens every patch would just get out of hand as it is we're already going to have 4 tokens in the list and it's only going to keep getting longer and more bloated. The next thing is token gear isn't supposed to be the best gear you can get it's supposed to be a stepping stone while you wait for that piece to drop that you want so by that style of thinking the valor badge gear works, not great, but works for 10 man. So i'm fine with them not introducing 10 man tokens
Kakistocracy Apr 10th 2009 1:35PM
I'm not sure what you mean by, "from day one", there was a time before the "heroic" versus "regular" vernacular appeared, even after they announced the plan to have ten and twenty-five person raids.
Knob Apr 10th 2009 1:27PM
How is the EoV loot that's available now not an upgrade to guilds running 10m raids? Unless they have been pugging 25m raids this whole time and have already exhausted all the items. In which case they should look at themselves and ask why they aren't raiding 25m raids all the time? They certainly seem to have the time for it (since this is the single biggest excuse people bring up to not doing 25m raids, yet another point I don't understand).
Hansbo Apr 10th 2009 1:28PM
It's generally accepted that 10 man content is more difficult than 25 man, and if you want to challenge yourself with a bunch of friends rather than being a more anonymous face in a big battle, how is that more casual?
Unclegoliath Apr 10th 2009 1:28PM
I agree with the fact that they should have put in 2 new badges instead of just the one for 25 mans. Reason being The guild I am currently in is more of a group of friends, though we raid 10 and 25 man content and have the members to keep it all in guild.
Like in most guilds some of us spend alot more time playing lvling and improving our characters than others in the 25 man group, these are the people that usually group on weekends and take down 10 mans while the rest of our 25 man group is offline. It would be nice for the players in the guild that put in the time on the weekends clearing 10 mans to get similiar items as in the 25 mans, because come our Monday 25 man raid everybody including the people that dont play as much and generally are not as good as the people that put in the hours are going to be rolling on and taking that high ilevel gear.
Rich Apr 10th 2009 1:29PM
Both sides...
Remember, its just a game...
Annukin Apr 10th 2009 2:14PM
Listen, 25-tards. We don't want *your* gear from *your*badges, we want *our* 10-man gear from *our* badges. It's not even equal footing, we just want to be able to access our 10 man Ulduar gear (not 25 man) with appropriate badges.
If you can't understand that simple fact...
We do not want poorly itemized ilvl 213 handmedowns, we want properly itemized ilvl 219 items (like ALL the other 10 man Ulduar pieces, tier and non-tier) and to be able to buy some Tier 8.10 set pieces with separate badges in case we get screwed on tokens, which EVERY SINGLE OTHER LEVEL OF RAID IS ABLE TO DO.
It's not better gear than the 25 mans, it does not threaten them in any way, shape or form. Yet all you do is respond with insults and a retarded form of "superiority". Even those Blizzard has already acknowledged than 25 man raids were easier.
FirstTimePoster Apr 10th 2009 1:31PM
I like Blizzard's solution except for the fact that you cannot buy two of your T8.0 pieces. Allowing 25man raiders to buy tier pieces and not 10man raiders is a bit unfair. But I can see why they don't let you buy T8.0. A lot of people will have more than enough Emblems of Valor with which to buy T8.0 pieces by the time 3.1 comes out if they allowed that.
Over all I think they did a fine job balancing 10man raider, 25man raider, programming effort(time and money).
I think a lot of us forget that Blizz is trying to strike a balance within its player community AND as a business. As a business man. I totally get this.
Celton Apr 10th 2009 1:32PM
The idea of having a new badge for 10-man Ulduar is actually a really good one. I have no idea why Blizzard isn't doing that. I also don't know why all the people here are calling you a whiner.
I only raid 25-mans, but I think this is a great idea. It doesn't make any sense to get 25-man Naxx gear from running Ulduar 10-man. No sense at all. Naxx-10 and Naxx-25 both have their own vendors. Ulduar-10 and Ulduar-25 should also have their own vendors.
Limor Apr 10th 2009 1:37PM
Why do 25-man raiders feel that they should get better loot than 10-man raiders, not just more loot? My experience has shown that 25-man content isn't any harder than 10-man content, it just requires more people.
And yes, I understand that more people opens up more chances for mistakes to happen and that getting 25 people together is more of a logistical challenge than getting 10 people together.
All in all, I would be fine with 25-man content getting gear that is half a tier better. But this continual marginalization of 10-man groups is frustrating to say the least.
Give us our own Uludar emblems with a separate vendor.
Give us the ability to buy our T8 chest and hand tokens.
Give us our legendary mace.
I understand that 10-man content will never have the BEST gear in the game.
I understand that the elitists will continue to preach about how 25-mans are superior.
But seriously... 10-man content deserves better than hand-me-downs from 25-man content.
Shade Apr 10th 2009 2:00PM
"My experience has shown that 25-man content isn't any harder than 10-man content, it just requires more people."
Which is changing with Ulduar. Blizz has said, more than once (lots of times really) that the current situation of some 10man bosses being more difficult than the 25 man version? Is a mistake. Big mistake, one that they are *fixing with Ulduar*.
10 man Ulduar will be easier than the 25 man. Even in hard mode, I suspect.
25 man raiders will be going into Uludar 25 man with 25 man Naxx gear. 10man Uludar raiders will be going in (presumably) with 10man Naxx gear - some of which is on par with 25, some of which is not. Having 25man Naxx badges drop from the 10man version of the next dungeon up makes -sense-. You aren't going to get the 25man badges any other way, and the 10man Ulduar gear will still drop.
It would be, as has been stated numerous times before, a nice thing if they had some of the 10man Ulduar gear added to the Valor badge vendor for consistencies sake, however.
krisby Apr 10th 2009 2:11PM
"My experience has shown that 25-man content isn't any harder than 10-man content, it just requires more people."
You must be new to this game....because all 25/40 mans have always been harder than 10/20 mans. Untill Sarth 3D that was the case friend. And I hate to tell you this but Naxx 25 was recycled content and in that wasnt as hard as it should have been. Blizzard is learning from a new system they implemented and trust me you will see harder content.
Dont expect to /rollface pug of ULD 25 and If you ever did Sunwell sir prenerf I hope u realize blizzard knows how to design hard content.
Limor Apr 10th 2009 2:44PM
"You must be new to this game...."
No, I'm not new. I just refuse to get involved in large raiding guilds because they are full of epeen stroking, immature, elitist brats like you.
Next time, try to stick to the topic at hand. You may find it helpful to read and attempt to comprehend the article too.
krisby Apr 11th 2009 1:08AM
Then dont make the assumption that you know 10 is harder than 25 or all content containing more people is easier.
I hate to break it to you I am not an elitist. I play casually(gasp!) and go to college full time.
Also All I was stating was that you were making an incorrect statement to further your point. Your reply shows me that you are in fact the one acting immature.
If you think the worst of the worst are in 25's then youd be sorely mistaken. Most of the nicest people I have ever met do high end raids. Its usually the wannabe's who act like jerks.
I suggest you stick to what your best at. Calling people names without any comprehension of the facts.
Mparkin Apr 10th 2009 1:32PM
This article strikes me as nothing more then a QQ post because your own personal agenda didn't get catered too.
They explained the reasoning for their decision, i read that on this site in fact. Their logic was sound and I totally understand why they chose this route.
You also need to remember, this is a fluid game, things change, items get tweaked, added, removed, etc. You may see new items on the vendor, tweaks to existing items, or something else.
My point, is articles like this are a waste of space and better fitted for the Bliz forums where your QQing may get noticed.
Philotaur Apr 10th 2009 1:33PM
Wow, so many 25 man fan boys here...
Nice article and it reflects a lot of my feelings about it as well.
After raiding both 10 man and 25 man content in WotLK, I'm particularly irked that Blizz elected to give better rewards to 25 man content. This is particularly crappy, considering 10 man content is significantly more difficult than 25 man... The only hard part of a 25 man is getting 25 people to all be online and not afk at once...wow..you 25 raiders are soooo leet!!
Guess what John? You're 25 man gear that you think equals superior skill means nothing considering like you said, "most of you just pug it anyway."
As to the article, my proposed solution is simple. Allow EoVs to be purchased with EoH at a 2 for 5 ratio...or even 1 for 10. This prevents running 10 mans rather than 25 mans for faster gearing and still allows gear to be available to all parties...provided they have the skill to down the bosses...
Firestride Apr 10th 2009 1:33PM
OP is an ass, but Hansbro, while you're correct for the current content, Blizzard has explicitly said that this was a mistake, and that 10-man Ulduar would be easier than 25-man Ulduar. Maybe they'll screw it up again, but it wasn't intentional that 10 was harder than 25.
Gaurmok Apr 10th 2009 1:33PM
World of Warcraft.
Giving millions of game players reasons to despise one another since 2004.
Swurds Apr 10th 2009 1:33PM
I don't have a problem with this at all.
10 mans DO have a seperate progression. If ou are a 10 man raider... you don't HAVE Emblems of Valor. You have Emblems of Heroism. Those items(besides the tier pieces) purchase things that you can, and probably will replace in Naxx 10. I think this basically forces the people to be able to buy items that are "good" for 10 man but not "great".
They have said that if you are in Naxx 25 man gear, you will find upgrades, and in 10 man Ulduar the hard modes give reg Ulduar 25 level loot. So basically, you can't buy your Tier Pieces ... which will make the Dungeon a bit harder... unlike Naxx, where you could be geared out in 2 piece T7 before ever stepping foot inside.(Or 3 piece Valorous gear if you got lucky in Archavon.)
If Naxx was easy, certainly it was because you could purchse the gear before goign in... now... they want you to earn it.
Fur Apr 10th 2009 1:33PM
""If you choose to do lesser content you get lesser rewards""
Its been proven that Naxx10 is HARDER than Naxx25.
So the entire system is backwards - the 10 man should be getting higher tier of loot, because they are actually harder.