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4-12-2009 @ 7:37PM
And +Hit > Expertise.
4-12-2009 @ 7:41PM
Absolutely true. On the other hand, capping your Hit is one of the best things you can do for your DPS even before you step into Naxxramas. I don't see why you'd be raiding Ulduar lacking +Hit.
4-12-2009 @ 7:49PM
Because prior to 3.1, you didn't need any +Hit and the top Ret paladins gemmed and enchanted for all Strength. +Hit is jumping straight to #1 with the patch, which is the major change.
4-12-2009 @ 8:07PM
+Hit jumping ahead of Strength in stat weight, you mean? I suppose that's correct, but I'd personally always placed a premium in hardcapping +Hit without having to gem or enchant for it. Certain gear will see you hardcap Hit, anyway. It'll become even easier in Ulduar, as a lot of pieces seem to have +Hit.
4-12-2009 @ 8:21PM
The reason hit is overtaking strength is because hit is percentage based and strength is not. The more strength you have, the lower the impact of each point of strength on a percentage basis. 3% hit is always 3% hit, regardless of the rest of your stats, meaning it will scale with every other stat you have, unlike strength.Smart paladins already have plenty of hit and expertise on their gear and simply gem for strength. That is NOT the same as saying strength is better than hit, because hit has a higher stat weight when using seal of blood already. If you were raiding with an extra 8% strength and 0 hit, you were doing less damage than someone who is hit capped and lacks 9% strength because (surprise) hit affects all our damage and strength only increases our damage partially since they also scale off of spellpower.Current top-end paladins don't ignore hit, they just don't gem for it because they already have plenty on their gear.
4-12-2009 @ 8:36PM
'Current top-end paladins don't ignore hit, they just don't gem for it because they already have plenty on their gear."That's ignoring hit. It's essentially automatic. Kind of like how you ignore breathing, but it still happens. Ignoring =/= avoiding.
4-12-2009 @ 8:30PM
Anyway, the main point was that right now in 3.0, +Hit isn't required for raiding in the least; You could theoretically run with zero Hit and do just fine (in relative to Warriors, Rogues, etc.). But come 3.1 it'll be our #1 stat. That's a massive and very important jump. I was just suggesting that, if you were to advise Ret Paladins out there to start grabbing a new stat, it should be +Hit.
4-12-2009 @ 8:35PM
"That's ignoring hit. It's essentially automatic. Kind of like how you ignore breathing, but it still happens."No, not when you pick your gear set to make sure you stay hit capped with what's on your gear. You don't just randomly pick your gear based on whatever looks good, do you? Ignoring =/= not gemming. There's a reason the crafted helm is 2nd BiS. Hint: It's not the strength.
4-12-2009 @ 8:37PM
"Anyway, the main point was that right now in 3.0, +Hit isn't required for raiding in the least; You could theoretically run with zero Hit and do just fine (in relative to Warriors, Rogues, etc.)"Oh, awesome, that sounds great and simple. Why don't you link some of these top ret paladins who don't bother with hit and just gear for straight strength? Or maybe some of their WWS parses where they do fine relative to warriors?I'd love to see them, I'm probably not the only one, either.
4-12-2009 @ 8:40PM
@Ferarro - The first thing I advise Ret Paladins right out of the gate is to cap the crap out of that Hit. Everything else follows. All the plate we'll pick up will have Strength, but not all of them will have +Hit. This is why it's not "automatic". You need to pick the gear which will put you at (and not much over) the Hit cap.That said, I think we ALL know what we mean. We're just being all nitpicky.
4-12-2009 @ 8:48PM
Then it seems your definition of "ignoring" is different from mine, which is fine. Personally, any default stat on gear - even though it's technically my option or choice to put it on - I don't consider that going out of my way for it. To me, gear is progressive and there's very few times when two or more slots are actually debatable in terms of benefit versus loss. I regard enchanting, gemming, slotting, etc. and other forms of open-ended enhancements as avenues of stacking or ignoring.
4-12-2009 @ 8:54PM
@Heilig: Here you go.http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sylvanas&n=CoranialJust a quick browse through top guilds in the world, and I found Method. As you can see, no gems or enchants for +Hit. Only Hit comes from the default stats on the gear. That's what I'm talking about. To me, this is ignoring Hit, not avoiding.You can carry on acting like an ass now.
4-12-2009 @ 9:39PM
I started digging through my bookmarks for some of the wws parses I've saved. Seen this stupid argument on the paladin forums way too many times.Looks like you beat me to the punch, happy Heileg?
4-12-2009 @ 10:21PM
"That's what I'm talking about. To me, this is ignoring Hit, not avoiding."Then you're either retarded or don't speak English very well, or possibly both. There are multiple options for every single slot on your paper doll. Xhoosing to wear gear that has hit already on it rather than gear without hit and then gemming for it is NOT in any universe ignoring hit. It is simply not gemming for hit. The reason we gem for strength is because strength has a higher stat budget than hit, so you're not maximizing itemization points if you gem for hit. Know what you're talking about, or at least speak the language before you make yourself look stupid. N O SMART PALADIN IGNORES HIT. They just cap it on their gear rather than gemming for it.
4-12-2009 @ 10:25PM
"Looks like you beat me to the punch, happy Heileg?"I'd be a lot happier if people would use their brains and understand that a stat that can be capped will always have an AVERAGE stat weight lower than one that can't be capped. Before you're hit capped it has the highest stat weight. After you're capped the value goes to zero. That's why sites with stat ranking put hit below strength in a general item weighting. All it takes is basic arithmetic to figure out that an average stat weight doesn't apply when stat values can be zero in certain conditions. But people see "STR > ALL" and get stupid about it.
4-12-2009 @ 10:55PM
Heilig, I have no idea why you keep referring to itemization costs, other than as a confusing way to explain that we get more DPS per point of strength than anything (Divine Strength, Blessing of Kings, and Sheath of Light essentially give free itemization). Currently we get more DPS per point of strength than any other stat, more than hit, more than expertise, more than haste, and more than armor penetration. Unfortunately, iLvL 213 and 226 items don't come itemized with just Strength and Hit is superior to every stat, barring Strength. If I could turn my 250 Hit Rating into 250 Strength, I would in a heart-beat.The only reason Ret should be worried about the Hit cap is to prevent going over it.But this is all moot, since you'll want to be Hit capped next patch and we'll treat expertise like we treat Hit now.
4-12-2009 @ 11:01PM
Also, Most calculator's calculate hit at its uncapped DPS value, they don't penalize it for being a cappable stat. In fact, a major flaw with most calculators is that they fail to recognize the cap and thus their optimal gear set are over capped.
4-12-2009 @ 11:09PM
Let me explain itemization costs.Take a piece of gear from naxx. It has an item level of 200 and is epic, so it gets a modifier. Let's say for example that the modifer is 1.25. That would mean that piece of gear has 250 itemization points. In order to fetermine how much of any given stat a piece of gear can have, Blizzard allocates a per-point budget to each stat. This is NOT the same as an individual class' preferred stat weights. Anyway, let's say for example that Strength is worth 1 itemization point and expertise is worth 0.8. This ratio is pretty accurate, but the actual value is not. That item with 250 itemization points could have 250 strength, 312 expertise, or some combination of the the two that totaled 250 itemization points. All other stats function similarly, with each one having a different absolute weight for itemization purposes."So what?" right? It's not like there is anything we can do about the way Blizzard budgets items. But what about sockets? Sockets have the same itemization cost REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU PUT IN THEM. So, if you can get 1.25 expertise for every 10 points of strength on gear, why would you take a piece with 10 strength and socket 16 expertise when you could take a piece with 13 expertise and socket 16 strength? You're wasting itemization points if you do it the first way.The TL;DR version is simple. you always SOCKET for Strength. You will get a higher total DPS increase by looking for hit and expertise on gear and using sockets for straight strength since it has the highest itemization cost of any stat.This is entirely different from our stat weighting. The fact that we get more DPS from Strength than anything else is only true once hit is capped, but that is not the point of this argument anyway. I refer to itemization costs because if you gear for hit and expertise and gem for strength, you will actually end up with more total stats than if you do it the other way around due to blizzard making Strength cost more than anything else on gear.
4-12-2009 @ 11:25PM
Monkey wrench in your argument, Primary Stats and any Combat Rating have an equal StatMod value of 1.00. Currently, STR>All until the ball-park range of 6k unbuffed HP, at which point, the % gain of hit out paces the static dps gain of STR.
4-12-2009 @ 11:37PM
Note, one should not debate both Ret and Prot at the same time as they may confuse AP with HP.
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