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4-14-2009 @ 3:40AM
I've noticed that Blizzard has decided to make the Alliance a darker, more menacing faction, and that is reflected in the look and demeanor of King Varian Wynn. I for one applaud the decision. For the longest, WoW has made the Alliance the 'Face' faction, while the horde were the 'heels', to borrow a wrestling term. I hope Blizzard continues to make the perceved morality more balanced among the factions.
4-14-2009 @ 4:20AM
Alliance have always been pretty dark when you get into their lore. It's a shame that those quest chains are such pains that most people avoided doing them even during Classic-era.Outright evil among the Horde (in the WoW-era) is pretty much limited to the Blood Elves pre-Sunwell (and that gets handwaved away with M'uru allowing himself to be taken) and the Hand of Vengeance.The Horde is essentially made up of exiled groups trying to avoid annihilation.The "good" races on Alliance: Gnomes, Night Elves, and the Draenei; usually have made some horrible decision in their past that has basically screwed their capital/planet/universe respectively.It's one of the things I like about WoW's lore is that ostensible bad guys are actually the good guys.
4-14-2009 @ 4:35AM
Wait what?Judging the horde by wow era and the alliance by the past? That's just silly-you guys actually have wow era evil, where as there's none i'm aware of alliance side.As for your history...You really think you have the moral high ground there?Really?
4-14-2009 @ 4:57AM
@ WallertThing is, we can really only judge the Horde by their WoW-era actions because the WoW Horde and the pro-WoW Horde are really two entirely different factions related by name alone. Pre-WoW Horde was a mindless marauding murdertrain operated by the Burning Legion. WoW Horde is a ragtag band of well-meaning misfits (plus the Forsaken) trying to carve out a home for themselves under the leadership of each race's most civil leader. I think this is the reason most Horde fans get so worked up about characters like Wrynn: the Horde pre-WoW =/= the Horde as of WoW, they're completely separate entities for all intents and purposes, yet the more zealous Alliance characters judge one by the other's actions.I agree with you that it's similarly unfair to judge, say, the draenei by the actions of the eredar, or the modern day night elves by the actions of those who would become the highbourne, but that's still a two-way street. The orcs of Thrall's Orgrimmar, the blood elves of Theron's Silvermoon, and the trolls of Vol'jin's Darkspear tribe should not be judged by the actions of the Legion, Kael'thas, and the Amani respectively. Even though there are orcs in Orgrimmar and blood elves in Silvermoon that did aid in their races' more nefarious deeds, they also repented and did what they could to DEFEAT those same evils (and no doubt, Darnassus and the Exodar hold many very similar people, with both races being or having been functionally immortal and thus likely participants in such long-ago events).Neither the Horde nor the Alliance is perfect and free of sin. Unfortunately, WoW has done a miserable job of portraying the Alliance's side of it up until now (in big part because only Horde players get to see it; Alliance players don't much interact with the spies and saboteurs setting up camp in Horde territories for the purposes of raid and ruin, like the Theramore ships in Durotar or the spies ringing the Horde camps in Dustwallow). Wrynn's really the first overt symbol of Alliance corruption, and it's about damn time (even if he is a poorly-written character).
4-14-2009 @ 5:01AM
Yeah, you guys just let the Forsaken torture people in the middle of a capital city.You're all great guys, I'm sure.
4-14-2009 @ 5:13AM
@ RetPallyJilSomehow I'd be genuinely surprised if, lore-wise, any of the Horde's leadership has been in the Undercity at all aside from Thrall helping to retake it post-Wrathgate.It's like the Ebon Blade's activities in Acherus: if either the Horde or the Alliance saw what they were doing up there, they'd flip their shit and shoot the whole thing down. I'd imagine Thrall, Cairne, & Co. would do the same thing to Sylvanas if they caught a glimpse of the Royal Apothecary Society.
4-14-2009 @ 5:22AM
@NagiGood points all. I still won't trust you to cover my back (well until you kick out the forsaken...), but i'm willing to agree that neither side is squeaky clean, that Varian's a pillock and that you guy's might even be nice ^^.On a side note this looks like reasonable and correctly spelt discussion on the internet-what's gone wrong?.
4-14-2009 @ 6:10AM
I agree and disagree with the sentiments about the New Horde.Thrall is an enigmatic leader, and a great one for the Horde. But the horde still hold true their hatred of the alliance much like varian of alliance.Biggest example of this is the quest in Icecrown, about finding out what happened in the Broken Front that leads to the PvP Daily. The Alliance were making a (seemingly successful) charge to take the first gate in northrend past the wrathgate. However, horde scouts spotted them and cornered them between them and the scourge, wiping out both factions.This kind of breeding hatred is present between both groups. It's leaders differ greatly though. Thrall & Jaina vs Garrosh & Varian essentially. There are sentiments for peace in both camps, just as there are senitments for war.In the end, no one is innocent. Most have commited major horrors against each other (save, lets say, taurens and gnomes. they keep to themselves most of the time). The only true righteous ones are the Argent Crusade, but even they have a counter (Ebon Blade).All in All blizzard has done a very good job with the "Focusing on Arthas is the only thing keeping the two factions from going into all out war on another" thing.
4-14-2009 @ 6:58AM
Why is everyone so anti-Forsaken? The vast majority of the Forsaken were basically peasants who were infected by the original plague through no fault of their own. Sure we became mindless servants of the Lich King but then we broke free. Simply being Undead does not necessarily make us evil. There are some among the Forsaken who do commit horrific crimes but the same is true of all the factions (I distinctly remember being asked to torture someone by a HUMAN.) Sylvanas was a great hero to her people before falling to the Lich King, she was a champion of good. Now she is a banshee she is trying to lead a her people (who have suffered far more than any other faction through no fault of their own) through some troubled times. There is a significant human faction dedicated to wiping us out. You can understand why we might be a little unsociable but to claim that all Forsaken are evil is naive and narrow-minded. Try wiping the slate clean post Sylvanas breaking away from the Scourge. Have we really commited crimes greater than any other race in that time?
4-14-2009 @ 8:19AM
@SilkathWell, I did eat that gnome's tasty eyeballs and use his stomach to make a whoopie cushion. But everybody in the magic quarter thought it was hilarious!
4-14-2009 @ 9:03AM
@RetPallyJil:To be fair, the orcs, trolls and tauren don't trust the Forsaken at all, and the Forsaken don't trust them. They have only a weak semblance of trust with the Blood Elves, probably because Sylvanas was a High Elf Ranger in life.The Forsaken have always been trying to test this concoction or another on various targets throughout all of the Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdork, Outland, and Northrend. It's been a constant theme. (There was even a theme of a possible alliance between the Forsaken and Grimtotem. XP)Basically, doing the quests for the Horde makes one certain that the distrust was very well-placed indeed.
4-14-2009 @ 10:43AM
I'm really kind of surprised every time I see the push to recommend one faction over the other as the "good" vs "bad" guys. One of the greatest things I've ever seen with the Warcraft universe is the moral ambiguity that's present in every race, that makes them feel real, that makes me feel like I'm not just trying to play a multi-faceted character in a world of Mary Sues. There is no race that has a blanket pass on only doing the right thing, or the villainous. You look at the lore, you can find a high and a low for each one, and likely if you take a character of any substantial amount of story, you can find their good and bad too.
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